From: Sjors Provoost <sjors@sprovoost.nl>
Message-Id: <2A39F6D7-CDF9-4624-BE0A-22C809C8B68C@sprovoost.nl>
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Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2018 18:13:23 +0100
In-Reply-To: <CALPhJax=53dLL9+JDKJC7NdEFFRB2kgKiECSh8PUMzrr2KxWuQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: Alan Evans <thealanevans@gmail.com>
References: <57f5fcd8644c6f6472cd6a91144a6152@nym.zone>
	<BB3FA46E-AA09-4A60-9D0F-8E350015E107@sprovoost.nl>
	<CALPhJax=53dLL9+JDKJC7NdEFFRB2kgKiECSh8PUMzrr2KxWuQ@mail.gmail.com>
Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] BIP 39: Add language identifier strings for
 wordlists
Precedence: list


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I don=E2=80=99t know about Electrum but many wallets validate the =
English words, which helps in catching typos.

Hardware wallets without a full keyboard, like the Ledger Nano S, =
won=E2=80=99t even let you freely type characters; you have to select =
words from a list.

So although the standard technically allows what you say, if you use =
anything other than 12, 16 or 24 English words, you=E2=80=99ll have =
fewer wallets to choose from.

I think it=E2=80=99s better to come up with a new standard than trying =
to patch BIP-39 at this point, which is why I brought it up.

Sjors

> Op 5 jan. 2018, om 17:27 heeft Alan Evans <thealanevans@gmail.com> het =
volgende geschreven:
>=20
> "Very few wallets support anything other than English"
>=20
> By support do you mean allow recovery, validation or generation or all =
three? For if you can freely type a phrase in (such as Electrum), or =
even word by word, then the likely-hood is it is supported if they =
remembered to normalize.
>=20
> Seed generation in BIP0039 requires no dictionary what-so-ever! So =
there is no word list to lose in the first place. Your funds are =
accessible with just the characters and the algorithm as described in =
BIP0039.
>=20
> But your proposal is a million miles away from simply adding some =
standard in-language names to some word lists feels like it's derailing =
the OP's simple proposal. Maybe start own email chain about it.
>=20
> Alan
>=20
> On Fri, Jan 5, 2018 at 12:04 PM, Sjors Provoost via bitcoin-dev =
<bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> I=E2=80=99m not a fan of language specific word lists within the =
current BIP-39 standard. Very few wallets support anything other than =
English, which can lead to vendor lock-in and long term loss of funds if =
a rare non-English wallet disappears.
>=20
> However, because people can memorize things better in their native =
tongue, supporting multiple languages seems quite useful.
>=20
> I would prefer a new standard where words are mapped to integers =
rather than to a literal string. For each language a mapping from words =
to integers would be published. In addition to that, there would be a =
mapping from original language words to matching (in terms of integer =
value, not meaning) English words that people can print on an A4 paper. =
This would allow them to enter a mnemonic into e.g. a hardware wallet =
that only support English. Such lists are more likely to be around 100 =
years from now than some ancient piece of software.
>=20
> This would not work with the current BIP-39 (duress) password, but =
this feature could be replaced by appending words (with or without a =
checksum for that addition).
>=20
> A replacement for BIP-39 would be a good opportunity to produce a =
better English dictionary as Nic Johnson suggested a while ago:
>         =E2=80=A2 all words are 4-8 characters
>         =E2=80=A2 all 4-character prefixes are unique (very useful for =
hardware wallets)
>         =E2=80=A2 no two words have edit distance < 2
>=20
> Wallets need to be able to distinguish between the old and new =
standard, so un-upgraded BIP 39 wallets should consider all new =
mnemonics invalid. At the same time, some new wallets may not wish to =
support BIP39. They shouldn't be burdened with storing the old word =
list.
>=20
> A solution is to sort the new word list such that reused words appear =
first. When generating a mnemonic, at least one word unique to the new =
list must be present. A wallet only needs to know the index of the last =
BIP39 overlapping word. They reject a proposed mnemonic if none of the =
elements use a word with a higher index.
>=20
> For my above point and some related ideas, see: =
https://github.com/satoshilabs/slips/issues/103
>=20
> Sjors
>=20
> > Op 5 jan. 2018, om 14:58 heeft nullius via bitcoin-dev =
<bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> het volgende geschreven:
> >
> > I propose and request as an enhancement that the BIP 39 wordlist set =
should specify canonical native language strings to identify each =
wordlist, as well as short ASCII language codes.  At present, the =
languages are identified only by their names in English.
> >
> > Strings properly vetted and recommended by native speakers should =
facilitate language identification in user interface options or menus.  =
Specification of language identifier strings would also promote =
interface consistency between implementations; this may be important if =
a user creates a mnemonic in Implementation A, then restores a wallet =
using that mnemonic in Implementation B.
> >
> > As an independent implementer who does not know *all* these =
different languages, I monkey-pasted language-native strings from a =
popular wiki site.  I cannot guarantee that they be all accurate, =
sensible, or even non-embarrassing.
> >
> > =
https://github.com/nym-zone/easyseed/blob/1a6e48bbdac9366d9d5d1912dc062dfc=
3f0db2c6/easyseed.c#L99
> > ```
> >       LANG(english,                   u8"English",    "en",   =
ascii_space ),
> >       LANG(chinese_simplified,        u8"=E6=B1=89=E8=AF=AD", =
"zh-CN",ascii_space ),
> >       LANG(chinese_traditional,       u8"=E6=BC=A2=E8=AA=9E", =
"zh-TW",ascii_space ),
> >       LANG(french,                    u8"Fran=C3=A7ais",   "fr",   =
ascii_space ),
> >       LANG(italian,                   u8"Italiano",   "it",   =
ascii_space ),
> >       LANG(japanese,                  u8"=E6=97=A5=E6=9C=AC=E8=AA=9E",=
        "ja",   u8"\u3000"  ),
> >       LANG(korean,                    u8"=ED=95=9C=EA=B5=AD=EC=96=B4",=
        "ko",   ascii_space ),
> >       LANG(spanish,                   u8"Espa=C3=B1ol",    "es",   =
ascii_space )
> > ```
> >
> > Per the comment at #L85 of the quoted file, I also know that for my =
short identifiers for Chinese, =E2=80=9Czh-CN=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Czh-TW=E2=
=80=9D, are imprecise at best=E2=80=94insofar as Hong Kong uses =
Traditional; and overseas Chinese may use either.  For differentiating =
the two Chinese writing variants, are there any appropriate standardized =
or customary short ASCII language IDs similar to ISO 3166-1 alpha-2 =
which are purely linguistic, and not fit to present-day political =
boundaries?
> >
> > My general suggestion is that the specification of appropriate =
strings in bitcoin:bips/bip-0039/bip-0039-wordlists.md be made part of =
the process for accepting new wordlists.  My specific request is that =
such strings be ascertained for the wordlists already existing, =
preferably from the persons involved in the original pull requests =
therefor.
> >
> > Should this proposal be =E2=80=9Cconcept ACKed=E2=80=9D by =
appropriate parties, then I may open a pull request suggesting an =
appropriate format for specifying this information in the repository.  =
However, I will must needs leave the vetting of appropriate strings to =
native speakers or experts in the respective languages.
> >
> > Prior references:  The wordlist additions at PRs #92, #130 =
(Japanese); #100 (Spanish); #114 (Chinese, both variants); #152 =
(French); #306 (Italian); #570 (Korean); #621 (Indonesian, *proposed*, =
open).
> > _______________________________________________
> > bitcoin-dev mailing list
> > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
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> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>=20
>=20
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