Delivery-date: Tue, 29 Apr 2025 08:13:42 -0700 Received: from mail-oo1-f63.google.com ([209.85.161.63]) by mail.fairlystable.org with esmtps (TLS1.3) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (Exim 4.94.2) (envelope-from ) id 1u9meT-0003cz-5Y for bitcoindev@gnusha.org; Tue, 29 Apr 2025 08:13:41 -0700 Received: by mail-oo1-f63.google.com with SMTP id 006d021491bc7-6044db45c83sf4065151eaf.1 for ; Tue, 29 Apr 2025 08:13:41 -0700 (PDT) ARC-Seal: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; t=1745939614; cv=pass; d=google.com; s=arc-20240605; b=aAJcq4NQm/2jAPxfd2UG+XnwwYj/NEKbfkEj6rZyjOuE9+AZtQunqYkZdVw+c/AEjT tHRQ3oYCGGvkM67wwlIpi3Lw7iCiylomp1rpQpaDN/bTKniACXIfUVJ74WQ2CyBon2U+ Y06bbUOxUxnMm7mPD94GxiL2b9442PnPfQplVfwU/J+InwIvb/q0lv9aFpaYAy85hKzD edivRlq0mKypl73ptMumsuLIQcRNp+O/zE43HmLg3i1uB68IGOHBCnLCfhRFYycxOIcR IsQxr/Osy1I07VFe5niEdSXd5u7TeBzC/ed4LnNNIfJV98RBd0I6G2IXaYs6sk4EBDwP W89A== ARC-Message-Signature: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=arc-20240605; h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post :list-id:mailing-list:precedence:message-id:in-reply-to:to :references:date:subject:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:from :feedback-id:sender:dkim-signature; bh=nVgPvnsmHdcdU/1rW/e8VhCbC4ZASdyX6+0saRAq1PI=; fh=e3tYM+mHAEaR8HIl1tNDt6mG/dwkjusHlA/++O2Kv8k=; b=W+mmOQ76l+XO7dSYmQEdHioIhhwFdHHGzH4BhY/YC2NGWENR+GXTQqAuWA3drU8w2L 9qcUdbSrlSLJfvZIAQMhRrBgUM/Ug6sD7m+IDl2xIZ4vCJWGEg+ADTFsEtrkJxmwQQoJ EjSM88HJI6rty6vfDE+SrK8JW9bY8bbSPdM8JEF1go3bRHzmCLn4vnIdgV10mc67Obrg PIYdGIuMln8fbNIQR39fUutLu3gcppyJr9OhyFfVkkaYeykjlTHpesV+LVp/ib6OY02N pyv6gNpVwKcbyVjMC2uvGGmJznkGXYFoeuljH/Z6oYwXRRKObgDjMXufeKo5pyRe5TOY /Omw==; darn=gnusha.org ARC-Authentication-Results: i=2; gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@sprovoost.nl header.s=fm1 header.b=Dmn8lS7Z; dkim=pass header.i=@messagingengine.com header.s=fm3 header.b="jFSKJ3/f"; spf=pass (google.com: domain of sjors@sprovoost.nl designates 202.12.124.153 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=sjors@sprovoost.nl; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=sprovoost.nl DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20230601; t=1745939614; x=1746544414; darn=gnusha.org; h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post :list-id:mailing-list:precedence:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:message-id:in-reply-to:to:references:date:subject :mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:from:feedback-id:sender:from :to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=nVgPvnsmHdcdU/1rW/e8VhCbC4ZASdyX6+0saRAq1PI=; b=sLmENWd5wmO9JlttaqYvSsJj+El10eQ2CkT3HVdKdEG67ckAIkcWlYh3BEKrvJ8KKq N5SrM20nzs3l8Yk5YYWy1DMCLzGI5tau6PlfV8af3TztX6M7Y+1FWIpma/gG85VRjprk ksRKFr+VaKVvJ85GXoC3Uz/ULwWWkwx9hx49GfZVkYR7YYQD3BdNVgiN+GxNtUJENlqq V/a5Kiu+4QeGFHUpjQodi/Wic9FZFzd8hE+nwQHvoEe7jbzllV9p64Xqa9bgQ+B9vT8H FfX7LirXzS93F35+0y/PTqhf7it5a0OEwfKSw+u5V0aBgwK88Zc4pAN9cjfqYgq9fAKw p5xw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1745939614; x=1746544414; h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post :list-id:mailing-list:precedence:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:message-id:in-reply-to:to:references:date:subject :mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:from:feedback-id:x-beenthere :x-gm-message-state:sender:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=nVgPvnsmHdcdU/1rW/e8VhCbC4ZASdyX6+0saRAq1PI=; b=M4yEsUFLHQsWJpVZ2kt7fLKr+hfLOh/OrhYu4ZhNntZRA1+yjyCvgPEpN/eW3eq1We iVDikkMHzJtxbJT8KkFo4bO2J4L3hitzTid5xIyXvfCW5bb5tGo2WzrPOM7Aj9fZJM5f Aj48YI5kOrSxmXKxx3LPgoUaokEWDnsGo4HPG/hL2lDjxq/TNLtwGZRB3VShiY/dcBKJ hXa9TRXxv3gDjKm/5dns4p6nxG2mPu35ww+BIVBCTvXG2oxSxNSPsNZCFmrtYe7BOW4h /FW7d3arftm1bGpgZuRvxYWemw6+gJTJtvb8HlZeOK9GOBS+fTqs0OtOc7M0FOajD5qO yQrA== Sender: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=2; AJvYcCV+iFLb0TZS+AbSsA7KTKjoC1vURsJFoye0g/s+3WHSe0JeQvcIUJ8G/oKHE1s0PxPfstuYnvOaj0HP@gnusha.org X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YzjD4RxCIEFuOyh6P7oPD2rAXXMmJSdnd3wJoGPfseGCpcEhWfN ZAWLRLRMKp3/xvJGPucqCIjXGpkiT0E+dtx8AX/+758eUZ7lJEPS X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IFJ7lqQqxCUKIeyFUZvm+NRicaeMwcJ86FTy8PxgJvLuQySumgxtJQxNvpqesrMP46Z3KuRJQ== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6820:2788:b0:607:8929:4501 with SMTP id 006d021491bc7-60789294d00mr730071eaf.1.1745939614227; Tue, 29 Apr 2025 08:13:34 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; h=AVT/gBGaur699HhrvUFEURdQTWezlxCSFy3+4sw1/1ATkl434g== Received: by 2002:a4a:eb0d:0:b0:606:867a:26f1 with SMTP id 006d021491bc7-606867a2db8ls171791eaf.1.-pod-prod-07-us; Tue, 29 Apr 2025 08:13:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:3c43:b0:401:e611:67c7 with SMTP id 5614622812f47-40210879366mr2345675b6e.27.1745939611154; Tue, 29 Apr 2025 08:13:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 2002:a54:488e:0:b0:3f9:f009:458e with SMTP id 5614622812f47-401f2f75777msb6e; Tue, 29 Apr 2025 07:51:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a05:6830:6619:b0:72b:9cc7:25c4 with SMTP id 46e09a7af769-73088c6c560mr2473985a34.22.1745938282676; Tue, 29 Apr 2025 07:51:22 -0700 (PDT) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; t=1745938282; cv=none; d=google.com; s=arc-20240605; b=dqRx3+pTvNs1ZwbtQMsd3DM0VBLCiHB1KFTFYiy1zRnMWtilTSwHUPmWCHB2mNkOgY Rmd9X+tNcYaze7BmKqmfwjjnkyA42ZsbAxeXX7psvmnsc5v+P3m7doKn/0n2qW4G/3xW 0a1Xz8xxTMR+2Us4HKe1jlVCpUPFIjLAv9UAnjWv/KdrnjH85Moijhm24Yc5+jlCvPoP U0wOAV6QSkdWEoeSfzKzMhbtaTDOHjPglLavbVpYVa4rDSrY3xGn9lPyY0mfZRTTGSjj lO6+Jww9RIRxuzc94bVOKIi+r+1hxmn8NmY0lSuI6OjoXM2UbrvS4wxDA7GvMdndrYYp VpIA== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=arc-20240605; h=message-id:in-reply-to:to:references:date:subject:mime-version :content-transfer-encoding:from:feedback-id:dkim-signature :dkim-signature; bh=NiWAGNuylRPsOax8Dvp42/UpWqVZAb1KdHeManlD6qQ=; fh=DMP0F9ULS1guKiqimntQRCN8ZraraesEgQuVcn7F0Z0=; b=cKEvj9B++8UVQwMAnsHVGY1tjcBgOLBf5a+dDHQbE11RszUolqhTdN9+GZewb4m+kG gQvGmEy4aWSgHZ2pdSLVFjYNxZIa4Y0vcBD85u+WnxMFAAyElEqu6AWkG8RWDpF7Um0S jtxWlCwddr8uYd90XFsrDZLj7jqpSxjLqMFY/uP/dx0R2PkxCqC2CAbUAsteHwmEGCJ8 Wt/X5P0Wpcjk9AejCPy50vXFv1mOAjSNeuPqzJCXCcuymc7fGYBG0us0F2e4/PaHKL9W y5eHmsalVYslRf9iH1bgPCxamxmnDheHoSDUV+lO8JiRDVPGG6R/ppwff4PyKFnyfv+7 +8ZA==; dara=google.com ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@sprovoost.nl header.s=fm1 header.b=Dmn8lS7Z; dkim=pass header.i=@messagingengine.com header.s=fm3 header.b="jFSKJ3/f"; spf=pass (google.com: domain of sjors@sprovoost.nl designates 202.12.124.153 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=sjors@sprovoost.nl; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=sprovoost.nl Received: from fhigh-b2-smtp.messagingengine.com (fhigh-b2-smtp.messagingengine.com. [202.12.124.153]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 46e09a7af769-7308b315950si85068a34.5.2025.04.29.07.51.22 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Tue, 29 Apr 2025 07:51:22 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of sjors@sprovoost.nl designates 202.12.124.153 as permitted sender) client-ip=202.12.124.153; Received: from phl-compute-04.internal (phl-compute-04.phl.internal [10.202.2.44]) by mailfhigh.stl.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9A902540096 for ; Tue, 29 Apr 2025 10:51:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phl-mailfrontend-01 ([10.202.2.162]) by phl-compute-04.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 29 Apr 2025 10:51:21 -0400 X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeefvddrtddtgddvieeguddtucetufdoteggodetrf dotffvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdggtfgfnhhsuhgsshgtrhhisggv pdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgenuceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpih gvnhhtshculddquddttddmnecujfgurhephfgtgfgguffffhfvjgfkofesthhqmhdthhdt vdenucfhrhhomhepufhjohhrshcurfhrohhvohhoshhtuceoshhjohhrshesshhprhhovh hoohhsthdrnhhlqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpedvvdelieegfffhiedvledtleefgfej ffejueelvdelueffteeuvdeifeetvdefleenucffohhmrghinhepghhithhhuhgsrdgtoh hmnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepshhj ohhrshesshhprhhovhhoohhsthdrnhhlpdhnsggprhgtphhtthhopedupdhmohguvgepsh hmthhpohhuthdprhgtphhtthhopegsihhttghoihhnuggvvhesghhoohhglhgvghhrohhu phhsrdgtohhm X-ME-Proxy: Feedback-ID: ie5e042df:Fastmail Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA for ; Tue, 29 Apr 2025 10:51:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Sjors Provoost Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3826.500.181.1.5\)) Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Relax OP_RETURN standardness restrictions Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2025 16:51:09 +0200 References: <03be4934-f0ff-4b58-880d-861d63a4f970@dashjr.org> To: Bitcoin Development Mailing List In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <4DAF69CE-2AA6-4429-9F3C-91030C88A88B@sprovoost.nl> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3826.500.181.1.5) X-Original-Sender: sjors@sprovoost.nl X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@sprovoost.nl header.s=fm1 header.b=Dmn8lS7Z; dkim=pass header.i=@messagingengine.com header.s=fm3 header.b="jFSKJ3/f"; spf=pass (google.com: domain of sjors@sprovoost.nl designates 202.12.124.153 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=sjors@sprovoost.nl; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=sprovoost.nl Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -0.8 (/) Hi Jason, > OP_RETURN was only made standard in a limited size to encourage less harm= ful data carrying in Bitcoin. That's correct. > and this was known to developers at that time. Sadly, eventually an expl= oit called 'inscriptions' happened which blew the cap off of the size limit= ation of arbitrary data storage... and to make matters worse, developers re= fused to patch the exploit or otherwise enforce the decade old limit on arb= itrary data size. If you look at the actual pull requests that implement such patches you'll = discover the various reasons why they were rejected. This mailinglist thre= ad has also re-iterated the futility of this cat-and-mouse game. It contain= s the relevant links, so I'm not going to repeat them here. > If that wasn't bad enough, exploiters get a 75% discount on transaction f= ees. At the time SegWit was proposed it was clear that the worst case block size= would increase to 4 MB. It took a few years for people to figure out how t= o take advantage of that. Somewhere between 2015 and early 2017 would have = been good time to object to the SegWit discount, but removing it now would = be a hard fork. Fwiw I think the discount was a good idea. > What's the point of having a "standard" way to store arbitrary data if t= he exploit method is 4x cheaper? And the nonstandard version of the exploit= allows 4x the data? What you call "nonstandard" is actually standard. Inscriptions follow stand= ardness rules. In general you're reasoning the wrong around imo. There is no point in rest= ricting transactions that are 4x more expensive than the alternative. And a= s was explained earlier in this thread by me and others, if we don't drop t= his limit then the UTXO set will get bloated. Just as you point out was the= historical issue. Bitcoin Core used to have a whitelist model where only a few transaction bl= essed by Satoshi were standard. I think it's good that we moved away from t= hat to where you typically don't have to lobby for your transaction type to= be included. But others disagree, e.g. Luke Dashr in this thread proposed = going back to that model. > Further, the inscriptions exploit currently requires chunking the data be= tween PUSH opcodes The issue of consecutive byte sequences stored on disk is intestering. But = imo it has been fully addressed on the Github PR now: https://github.com/bi= tcoin/bitcoin/pull/32359#issuecomment-2838068278 In summary: 1. The mempool is encrypted at rest 2. The blockchain is encrypted at rest for (relatively) new users, but not = for everyone. However, it is already trivial to inject arbitrary data into = the blockchain. This change does not make the problem worse. > That may sound like hyperbole, but it really isn't. It's irrelevant because this PR does not change the threats you are worried= about. > Today, too many developers don't understand this duty. If you don't have confidence in the Bitcoin Core developers, instead of ins= ulting them, you could also just (help) maintain a fork of the project. Wor= king on Knots seems the easiest way to do that. I obviously think you're mi= sguided here, but at least it's better to channel this distrust into someth= ing constructive. Given the number of people who share your sentiment, such= a project should be perfectly viable. - Sjors --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/= 4DAF69CE-2AA6-4429-9F3C-91030C88A88B%40sprovoost.nl.