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([2a01:cb1d:44:6500:9d6d:71b2:cb71:cb17]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id h13sm17461791wrt.89.2019.03.14.02.46.28 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 14 Mar 2019 02:46:29 -0700 (PDT) To: Dustin Dettmer , Bitcoin Protocol Discussion , Oscar Guindzberg References: <78CAF294-56E2-477C-B46F-C65A56357820@sprovoost.nl> From: Aymeric Vitte Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=vitteaymeric@gmail.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFdW8uABEAC7HJScbB2d/lmYoY5Cn9loEjJwfLs1LC3om030bWFGiH3Ceo5XeHUT94rw Pi+HaHU8ea94425SXIFsnqp/ouoT/8Ffn6vED0OoRmK0jE4fqDApXSpoL2mHX9PAGdUItMtD YrxBiBZNfMkctEsm4NrQ4TCvB3Yrm6Fc69inXJjUoYgPw5tHafEeI8Qwh0j99JZZDKcAqIra JF3MPc59rATz0qOJtRP9EpsPVFwjJe13zN6CHILwiVgrL8EtT5WKCVO6ATxh60LHi8+MwPxV V31zp/NNI5Hck+XocEMO98ZvUu9X8ZxmnOk/+9pBxXEwUqSGUNWdmPJLncpI23Usce3u/MOo M2C4T4rD4J0XrXiyBvbeTvwq4qVNlyggeWzlBH+YpEYgDctPq4gNh4eoTtAkf8URtBeke5bQ CGdaZt/jxv8nvmxs9V/iSyg5ldJLQktHStXOo0OZ7FEB2C6Ggtymm4hm2MHYg07Q1MGJrFLa oJZkJ3JeXnVsZMam7ypQtld6rRa96CvH+llXwux6aQ5hKdzmBBMQ10LlkZhkExgTawbeqdiG RMP2DjD5go6TPdAHS4NN34SBkrTWLqgWOjN/lnG77bbLnpMl0P+xBTuqw1oSXaDbcdHE2nGY lRno/ZZIfr+1Bq56DZLBX/WpnAT4f5WtofL4CxQM9SbG6byyewARAQABtCJBeW1lcmljIFZp dHRlIDxheW1lcmljQHBlZXJzbS5jb20+iQI/BBMBCAApBQJXVvLgAhsjBQkJZgGABwsJCAcD AgEGFQgCCQoLBBYCAwECHgECF4AACgkQKh17NCYnrDm3WhAAlYmgtSmtfqjBvQMqkmtqiQJA aZkzFZWt6+zroduHH5/Tp8jh73gFqCUyRrl/kcKvs2+XQhfrOwk1R6OScF25bpnrZSeuyJnZ MZu4T0P2tGS8YdddQvWUHMtI9ZnQRuYmuZT23/hgj1JnukuGvGLeY0yDUa1xFffPN39shp5X FPMcpIVOV3bs+xjAdsyfRyO3qJAD1FGiR7ggJeoaxUbKZ6NtcVUPPRMjVTKfopkuDwKY318m BE0epfxSZ/iRhsJ0/sREUWgbgq4/QvCFwBKzgz7fTikGmf8OELWSdofmXs7gOtmMc3el8fJu W8PVa/OsIQHDmwSzvxmE8ba5M8bdwOYEraTWFArIymAAtRXKxmuYpkqKfeSlbCwae3W+pgNT 8nKYRVAFlMtIxYkmPYyMTk9kCscmSqugGWbWdnqe/dhVaa31xa1qO1tDH24D2/tjCJRQt4Jk AEWNSmjCmjfeArMEFTGlZwMTAjVXErLSPbLOsZiZhD9sjvSbfzrtJiMli2h9+Dvds+AJk1PM O8LW7cCNyFoCk4OdAxzJHobZ25G+uy4NSQEHgxLC2iuh/tugz1tOHnQczPc/3AkVVI9A5DF1 gbVRBJh6rI7sAcwuR76uoOs0Rpp7r6I66xqU/5eq8g1OsJp89tw0ppSIa0YmaxNqQZ0l3rVX o/ZwpBjtNQS5Ag0EV1by4AEQANhlz3Ywff4dY1HTdn05v0wVUxZzW2PUih+96m6EhpUrD9BT vxriKtbgxm/zl+5YAlThbrk9f0QyVTHJ95Z1/M5qjuksP9Zn3qZ/8ylANDkN2s3z8Bq/LJA+ u7+APhMqyFWK0FqNCOogClvijiKPEzkU6tmDGO6wZ5pR/u8Fdq7DGQgwgyGZZc7qstte0M7l yx7bVRlPBqvd6kyX3YubQHzkctf46nFjiYZgKawdWFsA3PCdSBupbhixL5d/t1UK9ZTiQJcf 0uhHzT06qwolFrm/ugkLDHtE4Zo3BuKch47Sms8P2hJ08gABxeJHg0ZgkIUy/Xf4nHbDCBJw T8tE8pWYWA2ECiPNo0TOCMVOueEzISUNKINfCuFHSbMQU39hgt3ofxODbAjOiO3e/iu1ptck AkuVBdtjOBP4tHRGxVrbf5EuAV5U5xtiSxMwMgojg0GIXZjnT/8uvWqcLqtJILRMmmu+WNvD oxuiJzcTJhDai9oujmxQwcpMvgrBB89KSTDyitO5XVjZqaR7Zxvvn3rM4bAms/lotv9+pTyh spazTIxb80u0ifJ6y1RxAkxQCfWwps1i3VbsM6OKX78aUyOf5V4ihXF57M37tOqPRwFvz6a+ AIIhUNMTLo2H+o6Vw9qbX8SUxPHPs6YpJ8lWQJ9OMWHE+SbaDFAi/D5hYRubABEBAAGJAiUE GAEIAA8FAldW8uACGwwFCQlmAYAACgkQKh17NCYnrDmk4Q/9Fuu0h5HvIiO3ieYA2StdE7hO vv2THuesjJDsj6aQUTgknaxKptJogNe3dDyIT+FHxXmCw0Nrbm9Q3ryl80z/G9utfFNO3Gwc q31QW3n3LJHnpqdrV3WsRzT5NwJMVtiIAGRrX8ZomtarWHT0PeEHC2xBdFzRrJtmkrwer0Wc 0nBzD7vk1XEXC9nODbmlgsesoHFgRwQBst3wClCbX1gv8aSfxQNpaf9UBC8DmyrQ621UXpBo PvcFEtWxV44vJfP0WOLCCN0Pzv2F2I66iKo7VMqbr5jlNAXJN9I1hXb7qwYJmBC9j5oeEoqv A9d44WWpxrdAr8qih4Nv89k9+9F6NoqORY3FGuVDKiW8CVhCmGT7bIvNeyicVBZFipXqPcKL VFduO2c5Ubc2npMWLUF1k9JJc9tH75l3+F/0RbYVTzGAZ+zSaudwR6h8YiCN2DBZGZkJEZbh 3X/l6jtijMN/W9sPHyyKvm/TmeEC27S3TqZPZ8PUQLxZC70V6gMbenh01JdSQsn5t8Ru0RNh Blt0g7IyZyIKCE9b+TyzbYpX6qgqEBUHia5b0vyPtQacWQlZ8uqnghAqNkLluEsy7Q/7xG6M wXUYEDsFOmB9dKOzcAOIhpxlVjSKu5mzXJ11sEtE8nyF5NJ/riCA7FGcjlki3zIpzQUNo9v7 vXl2h6Tivlk= Message-ID: <0305189e-1a8c-68f3-e3ce-74b9cb15ce1e@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2019 10:46:28 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------C31129F0AFF2DB064881A604" Content-Language: fr X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.0 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU, FREEMAIL_FROM, HTML_MESSAGE, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham version=3.3.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on smtp1.linux-foundation.org X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 14 Mar 2019 10:36:11 +0000 Cc: Andreas Schildbach Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Removal of reject network messages from Bitcoin Core (BIP61) X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2019 09:46:32 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------C31129F0AFF2DB064881A604 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Apparently I don't have the same experience than others here, what I encountered is no reject message received for wrong txs, but from what I understand here it's not unusual to receive reject message for valid txs, then I don't see how it can be really helpful/relied, given also that the reject messages are unclear and even can be misleading As it was written already I found it useful only for debugging purposes, at least it can give some kind of ideas about what happened, bitcoin-transactions is implementing the bitcoin protocol but does not act as a node and does not pretend to fake a node behavior waiting for example to get the tx back, is the method of sending a getdata for a given tx to see if it was accepted by a node wrong ? It can't guarantee 100% that it was successful and will propagate but I see that you are doing completely different things Le 13/03/2019 à 23:30, Dustin Dettmer via bitcoin-dev a écrit : > I’ve solved the same problem in a different way. > > 1) Submit a transaction > 2) Collect all reject messages (that have matching txid in the reject > data) > 3) Wait 16 seconds after first error message received (chosen > semirandomly from trial and error) before processing errors > 4) Wait for our txid to be submitted back to us through the mempool, > if we get it notify success and delete all pending error events > 5) Signal failure with the given reject code if present (after the 16 > seconds have elapsed) > 6) If no error or success after 20 seconds, signal timeout failure > > This works fairly well in testing. Newer transaction types seem to > generate reject codes 100% of the time (from at least one node when > sending to 4 nodes) so this culling / time delay approach is > essentially required. > > On a related note: One issue is that RBF attempts with too small a fee > and accidental double spends (with enough fee for 1 tx but not a RBF) > both generate the same reject code: not enough fee. > > A new reject code for RBF based too small of fee would definitely make > for a better user experience as I’ve seen this exact problem create > confusion for users. > > Removing reject codes would make for a much worse user experience. > “Your tx failed and we have no idea why” would be the only message and > it would require waiting for a full timeout. > > On Wed, Mar 13, 2019 at 3:16 PM Oscar Guindzberg via bitcoin-dev > > wrote: > > > I'd like to better understand this, but it would be easier to just > > read the code than ask a bunch of questions. I tried looking for the > > handling of reject messages in Android  Bitcoin Wallet and BitcoinJ > > and didn't really find and handling other than logging exceptions. > > Would you mind giving me a couple pointers to where in the code > > they're handled? > > https://github.com/bitcoinj/bitcoinj/blob/master/core/src/main/java/org/bitcoinj/core/TransactionBroadcast.java#L93-L108 > _______________________________________________ > bitcoin-dev mailing list > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org > > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev > > > _______________________________________________ > bitcoin-dev mailing list > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev -- Move your coins by yourself (browser version): https://peersm.com/wallet Bitcoin transactions made simple: https://github.com/Ayms/bitcoin-transactions Zcash wallets made simple: https://github.com/Ayms/zcash-wallets Bitcoin wallets made simple: https://github.com/Ayms/bitcoin-wallets Get the torrent dynamic blocklist: http://peersm.com/getblocklist Check the 10 M passwords list: http://peersm.com/findmyass Anti-spies and private torrents, dynamic blocklist: http://torrent-live.org Peersm : http://www.peersm.com torrent-live: https://github.com/Ayms/torrent-live node-Tor : https://www.github.com/Ayms/node-Tor GitHub : https://www.github.com/Ayms --------------C31129F0AFF2DB064881A604 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Apparently I don't have the same experience than others here, what I encountered is no reject message received for wrong txs, but from what I understand here it's not unusual to receive reject message for valid txs, then I don't see how it can be really helpful/relied, given also that the reject messages are unclear and even can be misleading

As it was written already I found it useful only for debugging purposes, at least it can give some kind of ideas about what happened, bitcoin-transactions is implementing the bitcoin protocol but does not act as a node and does not pretend to fake a node behavior waiting for example to get the tx back, is the method of sending a getdata for a given tx to see if it was accepted by a node wrong ? It can't guarantee 100% that it was successful and will propagate but I see that you are doing completely different things

Le 13/03/2019 à 23:30, Dustin Dettmer via bitcoin-dev a écrit :
I’ve solved the same problem in a different way.

1) Submit a transaction
2) Collect all reject messages (that have matching txid in the reject data)
3) Wait 16 seconds after first error message received (chosen semirandomly from trial and error) before processing errors
4) Wait for our txid to be submitted back to us through the mempool, if we get it notify success and delete all pending error events
5) Signal failure with the given reject code if present (after the 16 seconds have elapsed)
6) If no error or success after 20 seconds, signal timeout failure

This works fairly well in testing. Newer transaction types seem to generate reject codes 100% of the time (from at least one node when sending to 4 nodes) so this culling / time delay approach is essentially required.

On a related note: One issue is that RBF attempts with too small a fee and accidental double spends (with enough fee for 1 tx but not a RBF) both generate the same reject code: not enough fee.

A new reject code for RBF based too small of fee would definitely make for a better user experience as I’ve seen this exact problem create confusion for users.

Removing reject codes would make for a much worse user experience. “Your tx failed and we have no idea why” would be the only message and it would require waiting for a full timeout.

On Wed, Mar 13, 2019 at 3:16 PM Oscar Guindzberg via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> I'd like to better understand this, but it would be easier to just
> read the code than ask a bunch of questions. I tried looking for the
> handling of reject messages in Android  Bitcoin Wallet and BitcoinJ
> and didn't really find and handling other than logging exceptions.
> Would you mind giving me a couple pointers to where in the code
> they're handled?

https://github.com/bitcoinj/bitcoinj/blob/master/core/src/main/java/org/bitcoinj/core/TransactionBroadcast.java#L93-L108
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https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev

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https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev

-- 
Move your coins by yourself (browser version): https://peersm.com/wallet
Bitcoin transactions made simple: https://github.com/Ayms/bitcoin-transactions
Zcash wallets made simple: https://github.com/Ayms/zcash-wallets
Bitcoin wallets made simple: https://github.com/Ayms/bitcoin-wallets
Get the torrent dynamic blocklist: http://peersm.com/getblocklist
Check the 10 M passwords list: http://peersm.com/findmyass
Anti-spies and private torrents, dynamic blocklist: http://torrent-live.org
Peersm : http://www.peersm.com
torrent-live: https://github.com/Ayms/torrent-live
node-Tor : https://www.github.com/Ayms/node-Tor
GitHub : https://www.github.com/Ayms
--------------C31129F0AFF2DB064881A604--