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[202.12.124.157]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 5614622812f47-40678cca28bsi627945b6e.3.2025.06.05.05.17.03 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Thu, 05 Jun 2025 05:17:03 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of pete@petertodd.org designates 202.12.124.157 as permitted sender) client-ip=202.12.124.157; Received: from phl-compute-01.internal (phl-compute-01.phl.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailfhigh.stl.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id C19D625400E0; Thu, 5 Jun 2025 08:17:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phl-mailfrontend-01 ([10.202.2.162]) by phl-compute-01.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 05 Jun 2025 08:17:02 -0400 X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeeffedrtddugdefieduucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdggtfgfnhhsuhgsshgtrhhisggvpdfu rfetoffkrfgpnffqhgenuceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnh htshculddquddttddmnecujfgurhepfffhvfevuffkfhggtggujgesghdtreertddtvden ucfhrhhomheprfgvthgvrhcuvfhougguuceophgvthgvsehpvghtvghrthhouggurdhorh hgqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeelvdellefftddukeduffejgfefjeeuheeileeftdfg teduteeggeevueethfejtdenucffohhmrghinhepphgvthgvrhhtohguugdrohhrghenuc evlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehpvghtvges phgvthgvrhhtohguugdrohhrghdpnhgspghrtghpthhtohepfedpmhhouggvpehsmhhtph houhhtpdhrtghpthhtohepghhmrgigfigvlhhlsehgmhgrihhlrdgtohhmpdhrtghpthht ohepsghithgtohhinhguvghvsehgohhoghhlvghgrhhouhhpshdrtghomhdprhgtphhtth hopehsjhhorhhssehsphhrohhvohhoshhtrdhnlh X-ME-Proxy: Feedback-ID: i525146e8:Fastmail Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Thu, 5 Jun 2025 08:17:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: by localhost (Postfix, from userid 1000) id A0FC39FDFE; Thu, 5 Jun 2025 12:16:59 +0000 (UTC) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2025 12:16:59 +0000 From: Peter Todd To: Greg Maxwell Cc: Sjors Provoost , bitcoindev@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Censorship Resistant Transaction Relay - Taking out the garbage(man) Message-ID: References: <4BA2B86E-3E4B-416B-9237-AFD66FC4E37A@sprovoost.nl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="/69DgN+0WezkAwku" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Original-Sender: pete@petertodd.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@messagingengine.com header.s=fm1 header.b="LCQS4RA/"; spf=pass (google.com: domain of pete@petertodd.org designates 202.12.124.157 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=pete@petertodd.org Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -0.8 (/) --/69DgN+0WezkAwku Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Disposition: inline On Tue, Jun 03, 2025 at 05:00:42PM +0000, Greg Maxwell wrote: > But when the censorship is backed by threat (even if vague or > unconstitutional) of civil or criminal legal penalties, the avenue to just > bypass may be much less available. > > So for example, in an alternative universe: Bitcoin goes along with Guida > and after having built this massive edifice of transaction censorship the > Bitcoin developers lose their UK lawsuit Craig S Wright after he > successfully bribes a judge, and now have a the UK courts imposing a > worldwide order to freeze any of their bitcoin address under threat of > imprisonment. The censorship is deployed via the prebuilt censorship > infrastructure, and willingness to bypass it is greatly decreased because > doing so would land the bypasser a UK arrest warrant. Could they still get > their transactions through? Probably but at much greater costs and delays, > creating a significant harm. Not building the censorship infrastructure > (even though you intend it for 'good' purposes) and instead building > anti-censorship infrastructure leaves us all with a better world. I want to emphasize that this type of threat is not theoretical. Court-Confirmed Fraudster Craig Wright did in fact sue us in an effort to recover alleged stolen coins. If courts perceive a history of Bitcoin Core developers actively trying to prevent "undesirable" transactions, then there is a very real chance for courts to order Bitcoin Core developers to do things like freeze addresses, even though if anyone posted such a pull request it would be ineffectual because people wouldn't choose to run it. Still the order would be highly disruptive to people and the project. The community should want every protection available to prevent future court actions like that from being considered, issued or succeeding. A history of actively trying to prevent "undesirable" transactions does not help. It's notable that this advocacy from filtering is coming from a pool that claims to offer decentralized mining via the DATUM protocol. Yet hasn't even taken the most basic step to actually achieving that: releasing the full DATUM source code. If a court orders miners to run an extension of Knots with specific addresses censored, DATUM will do absolutely nothing to stop that: DATUM currently has OCEAN approving blocks - allowing OCEAN to reject shares mining censored addresses. Without the ability to spin up competitors to OCEAN, miners wishing to contribute uncensored hash power can do nothing other than hope someone decided to rewrite, from scratch, all the closed-source OCEAN code making DATAUM actually work. If you're actually serious about decentralization, open-source OCEAN. -- https://petertodd.org 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/aEGKu4u8B03Tiy26%40petertodd.org. --/69DgN+0WezkAwku Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEE0RcYcKRzsEwFZ3N5Lly11TVRLzcFAmhBiroACgkQLly11TVR LzcqShAAp77hJKSW5NfmfmQl0VC2aMxyPAajoQWraz5IXrOx/RcEhroy3tI79kAd 8toiJr3nVfR9gXroz8+N9hzVqDODyW95RHI8lfYevGzfhVocVWYzhKkZ+XvmKxKY LwaG52bcFJF8AWLM/DPPOv6Jp41io8b2ez/Wkr4e4jx/jbWVDKov+7llAfcQUt72 32jcyWgWbasYkeNkPxZqmj43yiyKSR63XTwXoKScaS4RzlNqgPLwpE+4f5e2QjGo KuzoKaQvlXgvim638J6zU4PQJsOCkjuGbmQpyPH8bfiCCvWwkVxURSE5dW6JZlGW k1vn9CVEVDG+LGPvWbizlB1/J6n+fajg7ghlrl4SmpnE/eGP5dXYAhuAhFfONH77 AlooI2ndCeaqJBC794tpXgAHoFUs9xJ7wnnajBSviPUtbCJe0oUlbcR9+eLVfLxu k+fs3kayNtNicsCrWsBvZRKs36yWciIh3EoQybgEDw1/PIibeFZRwRsxmKtlttu5 EU5ppKv/fWVh0+YwTJO9DhWPQDOZ8TdusolF0UfksKnCdE7vwk2mPoCM6Hbj8pNl ux8wqhDlcueAyAtZ0L4hTvDrTNK87YIhCPJAnmNJiyRnkEkY9mvDeGCuWSGvHy4U Ou//6mk3+Wo5s3lLFPMR5GTzmtUNSrC0+/RWOQniWnPHVwOegFc= =Gqao -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --/69DgN+0WezkAwku--