Return-Path: Received: from smtp4.osuosl.org (smtp4.osuosl.org [IPv6:2605:bc80:3010::137]) by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D2E8C002A for ; Fri, 12 May 2023 16:03:12 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp4.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBDB540139 for ; Fri, 12 May 2023 16:03:11 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 smtp4.osuosl.org CBDB540139 X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from smtp4.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp4.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dPTvOzWCJQYF for ; Fri, 12 May 2023 16:03:09 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: from auto-whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.8.0 DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 smtp4.osuosl.org B62B142D22 Received: from www382.your-server.de (www382.your-server.de [78.46.146.228]) by smtp4.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B62B142D22 for ; Fri, 12 May 2023 16:03:09 +0000 (UTC) Received: from sslproxy05.your-server.de ([78.46.172.2]) by www382.your-server.de with esmtpsa (TLS1.3) tls TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (Exim 4.94.2) (envelope-from ) id 1pxVEZ-00047Y-RD; Fri, 12 May 2023 18:03:07 +0200 Received: from [2001:9e8:8a6a:ff00:8475:18df:e121:ab2e] (helo=smtpclient.apple) by sslproxy05.your-server.de with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1pxVEZ-000LKA-88; Fri, 12 May 2023 18:03:07 +0200 From: Robin Linus Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_57CED25D-1E38-484E-AC17-107708293DF1" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) Date: Fri, 12 May 2023 18:03:06 +0200 References: To: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org, Weiji Guo In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <8DFE4646-9E8B-4A92-BBA2-EBD4A785C1D3@zerosync.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13) X-Authenticated-Sender: robin@zerosync.org X-Virus-Scanned: Clear (ClamAV 0.103.8/26904/Fri May 12 09:24:30 2023) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 12 May 2023 16:04:56 +0000 Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] ZeroSync: Introducing Validity Proofs to Bitcoin X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 May 2023 16:03:12 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_57CED25D-1E38-484E-AC17-107708293DF1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi Weiji, > Could you please expand more on how you plan to "implement a SNARK = verifier on Bitcoin=E2=80=99s base layer"? First, I should clarify that I see this as a long-term option, which = will take years. If Simplicity gets activated, we could use it to = implement a SNARK verifier on Bitcoin's base layer. But for now, we just = plan to experiment with Simplicity on the Liquid sidechain when it gets = activated. > For your information, I happen to be the one proposing a new opcode = OP_ZKP to enable the Bitcoin network to verify zkp proofs. My proposal = requires a soft fork. You may find more information from the email = archive here: = https://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org/msg1260= 1.html = I've seen it; however, I suppose it is hard to establish consensus over = some particular kind of op_snark_verify opcode because there are so many = competing proof systems with different trade-offs. For example, STARKs = are great for a chain state proof as they are scalable and allow for = processing huge circuits; however, I would not favor STARKs for an = on-chain verifier because there are other proof systems, such as = Plonky2, with much smaller proof sizes. A nice thing about SNARK verifiers is that once we have any verifier, we = can use it to wrap other proofs. E.g., we could "compress" the size of a = STARK by verifying it in a Plonky2 proof. Still, Simplicity offers much more flexibility and allows to update = verifiers as the research advances. > We might be tackling similar issues and probably could benefit from = each other.=20 Sounds good! Please join our Telegram group, if you would like to chat = about SNARKs on Bitcoin https://t.me/zerosync_chat = Cheers, Robin=20= --Apple-Mail=_57CED25D-1E38-484E-AC17-107708293DF1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Hi = Weiji,

Could you please expand more = on how you plan to "implement a SNARK verifier on Bitcoin=E2=80=99s base = layer"?
First, I should clarify that = I see this as a long-term option, which will take years. If Simplicity = gets activated, we could use it to implement a SNARK verifier on = Bitcoin's base layer. But for now, we just plan to experiment with = Simplicity on the Liquid sidechain when it gets activated.


For your = information, I happen to be the one proposing a new opcode OP_ZKP to = enable the Bitcoin network to verify zkp proofs. My proposal requires a = soft fork. You may find more information from the email archive = here: https://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.= org/msg12601.html

I've = seen it; however, I suppose it is hard to establish consensus over some = particular kind of op_snark_verify opcode because there are so many = competing proof systems with different trade-offs. For example, STARKs = are great for a chain state proof as they are scalable and allow for = processing huge circuits; however, I would not favor STARKs for an = on-chain verifier because there are other proof systems, such as = Plonky2, with much smaller proof sizes.

A nice thing about SNARK verifiers is = that once we have any verifier, we can use it to wrap other proofs. = E.g., we could "compress" the size of a STARK by verifying it in a = Plonky2 proof.
Still, Simplicity offers much more flexibility = and allows to update verifiers as the research = advances.


We might be = tackling similar issues and probably could benefit from each = other. 

Sounds good! Please join our Telegram group, if you would = like to chat about SNARKs on Bitcoin https://t.me/zerosync_chat



Cheers,
Robin 
= --Apple-Mail=_57CED25D-1E38-484E-AC17-107708293DF1--