Return-Path: <rsomsen@gmail.com> Received: from whitealder.osuosl.org (smtp1.osuosl.org [140.211.166.138]) by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6E46C0052 for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>; Mon, 23 Nov 2020 13:53:32 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by whitealder.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8D85862BC for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>; Mon, 23 Nov 2020 13:53:32 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org Received: from whitealder.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QQQpllktxpGY for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>; Mon, 23 Nov 2020 13:53:30 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: domain auto-whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6 Received: from mail-ed1-f51.google.com (mail-ed1-f51.google.com [209.85.208.51]) by whitealder.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 674DD8628A for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>; Mon, 23 Nov 2020 13:53:30 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-ed1-f51.google.com with SMTP id k1so4222602eds.13 for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>; Mon, 23 Nov 2020 05:53:30 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=1dlAUsuyU1fgKfi0y+l1jv7i6AZ719uV7u5VpfF984I=; b=U5kFna1tO7eg3XN11youBAN0+y0O7MXTl2CoxLz0Az38Gm3hHSPRqnbpN2PU9swcXv JmTEm/29WZlW1WfWsCW4xWM0+/XTkygSzElXi9Gz6b0g1e6Nbcb/xcbzODH4YqzKAQD+ EfXiW5pRs2AnzJrc3QQuW4CctH5UDNlSI+xuuV9zCFydlZA2vb61GGB/mZWWfzG6Tj80 HlIImy3Lorjgg0j7qq+xkUuC+52tUh1AzpW/z+43kN23nAXcT1YNQfltjKpEzWkmrXNP W9VpamxVpOi8etIi6i+qr5WFQhxI3hLjedEQY66XCPD+5/TXhQpCPhgTfDCXU8PsS5aP rpAA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=1dlAUsuyU1fgKfi0y+l1jv7i6AZ719uV7u5VpfF984I=; b=hEEtttfijgtdk/zuDxWfgcKkYxFKLD1M6Mh0yOIaN4myndHNot0cPg+zuAgLDkzLiB IA5IIXHu2hhMGd3hlY7Mhj2LZrpx0G72C4VEY9IgOYAmltl4Rpz3JoMZNq8n/Mis4toC vpszJagmRkBd/7qElrN08xnPZN2Q+ilCGwV/9Iv5VVSfaaNx0a3ygttRAd0+IpMfvuOw hWFmQFZUcYhlxZss4IEa3JRMzxv80ZSTNehPhSZxNS7hifm22OUlazs0+nGZ4QqAzpZ1 EBU7lWogSAKSx1Zrs1NnLGk6TEY0KEHJo9PCnUqgx5SRTD6qB1a4jXVj++b8nvJ1w3az Clow== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530DZTYygN6jkrMUOibqycmAchEmuoKpXxFigjck9IkFZHiDoIcN A6THd3C1jLQNK87FScmXYBryX8au/vt7nHojRQ8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzhST9cU63AJk1fTuzQK+n54dgDgQcp6sMkbBkjTMv5vExICHjIGpDbYoML9H7NsxXfRGtp/kj6A6XHge8eKlk= X-Received: by 2002:aa7:d28d:: with SMTP id w13mr28322578edq.15.1606139608819; Mon, 23 Nov 2020 05:53:28 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <S5bq_TLMgPY9S40UFwJULeLvExJ5iZBBJL36n389k87KUVWDCn4WIeG9OE99H-8R-d7WOIHutp0l9AozitRtwPPN2O98EmC6wKXPS0W1g5U=@protonmail.com> <sTHQz03Yb85tmjxs3cwtzPXi8pYKR0jGYhIN0pJWV-h6FuMkevKS41kRnuXcNA9z1QN8T0KZlewLCpsExyJV7h-MlFuGJ41onn9T0QYaMBA=@protonmail.com> In-Reply-To: <sTHQz03Yb85tmjxs3cwtzPXi8pYKR0jGYhIN0pJWV-h6FuMkevKS41kRnuXcNA9z1QN8T0KZlewLCpsExyJV7h-MlFuGJ41onn9T0QYaMBA=@protonmail.com> From: Ruben Somsen <rsomsen@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2020 14:53:15 +0100 Message-ID: <CAPv7TjZxFr4LhpVSeP__Y7Sk3JB=uMypoayhOcps9VuORYDdHQ@mail.gmail.com> To: AdamISZ <AdamISZ@protonmail.com>, Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d7ec9805b4c68438" X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 23 Nov 2020 13:54:12 +0000 Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Bulletin boards without selective censorability for bitcoin fungibility markets X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev.lists.linuxfoundation.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/options/bitcoin-dev>, <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/> List-Post: <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev>, <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2020 13:53:33 -0000 --000000000000d7ec9805b4c68438 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Adam, That's a tricky issue you're trying to tackle. >and/or use the blockchain for that function, but that is too slow and expensive, usually While perhaps not the most easy/practical path to take, it IS possible to create a custom blockchain for this specific purpose to use as a censorship-resistant data layer via Blind Merged Mining: https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2019-December/01753= 4.html Note that while it's not described in detail in my post, there is a (slightly suboptimal) way to do it without a soft fork. And here are more details about the perpetual one-way peg mechanism (needed to pay for fees without introducing speculation): https://medium.com/@RubenSomsen/21-million-bitcoins-to-rule-all-sidechains-= the-perpetual-one-way-peg-96cb2f8ac302 Cheers, Ruben On Mon, Nov 23, 2020 at 1:59 PM AdamISZ via bitcoin-dev < bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: > =E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90 Original = Message =E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90 > On Monday, 23 November 2020 00:40, AdamISZ via bitcoin-dev < > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: > > > Canvassing opinions/critiques from those working on bitcoin and related > protocols. > > > > See the attached gist for a write-up of an outline of an idea, which is > conceived for joinmarket but can apply in other scenarios where there is > market for liquidity and in which privacy is a very high priority (hence > 'bitcoin fungibility markets' can certainly include coinswap along with > coinjoin, but possibly other things): > > > > https://gist.github.com/AdamISZ/b52704905cdd914ec9dac9fc52b621d6 > > Greg Maxwell pointed out to me on IRC that this idea doesn't work: there > is only a receipt on the commitment to the offer (message) from the maker= , > not on the plaintext version, hence there is nothing stopping the maker > from falsely claiming censorship after not sending the plaintext. > > Reflecting on this a bit more, my intuition is that this problem is much > more difficult than I had hoped; if there is a solution I suspect it > involves much more sophisticated ideas. Many solutions just end up beggin= g > the question by presuming the existence of an uncensorable BB in order to > create a new one; and/or use the blockchain for that function, but that i= s > too slow and expensive, usually. I'd be happy to be proved wrong, though = :) > > waxwing > _______________________________________________ > bitcoin-dev mailing list > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev > --000000000000d7ec9805b4c68438 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Adam,<div><br></div><div>That's a tricky issue you&= #39;re trying to tackle.<br><div><div><br></div><div>>and/or use the blo= ckchain for that function, but that is too slow and expensive, usually<br><= /div></div><div><br></div><div>While perhaps not the most easy/practical pa= th to take, it IS possible to create a custom blockchain for this specific = purpose to use as a censorship-resistant data layer via Blind Merged Mining= :</div><div><a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-= dev/2019-December/017534.html">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/= bitcoin-dev/2019-December/017534.html</a><br></div><div><br></div><div>Note= that while it's not described in detail in my post, there is a (slight= ly suboptimal) way to do it without a soft fork.</div><div><br></div><div>A= nd here are more details about the perpetual one-way peg mechanism (needed = to pay for fees without introducing speculation):</div><div><a href=3D"http= s://medium.com/@RubenSomsen/21-million-bitcoins-to-rule-all-sidechains-the-= perpetual-one-way-peg-96cb2f8ac302">https://medium.com/@RubenSomsen/21-mill= ion-bitcoins-to-rule-all-sidechains-the-perpetual-one-way-peg-96cb2f8ac302<= /a><br></div><div><br></div><div>Cheers,</div><div>Ruben</div></div></div><= br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Mon,= Nov 23, 2020 at 1:59 PM AdamISZ via bitcoin-dev <<a href=3D"mailto:bitc= oin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a= >> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px= 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">=E2= =80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90 Original Messa= ge =E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90<br> On Monday, 23 November 2020 00:40, AdamISZ via bitcoin-dev <<a href=3D"m= ailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">bitcoin-dev@= lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>> wrote:<br> <br> > Canvassing opinions/critiques from those working on bitcoin and relate= d protocols.<br> ><br> > See the attached gist for a write-up of an outline of an idea, which i= s conceived for joinmarket but can apply in other scenarios where there is = market for liquidity and in which privacy is a very high priority (hence &#= 39;bitcoin fungibility markets' can certainly include coinswap along wi= th coinjoin, but possibly other things):<br> ><br> > <a href=3D"https://gist.github.com/AdamISZ/b52704905cdd914ec9dac9fc52b= 621d6" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://gist.github.com/AdamISZ= /b52704905cdd914ec9dac9fc52b621d6</a><br> <br> Greg Maxwell pointed out to me on IRC that this idea doesn't work: ther= e is only a receipt on the commitment to the offer (message) from the maker= , not on the plaintext version, hence there is nothing stopping the maker f= rom falsely claiming censorship after not sending the plaintext.<br> <br> Reflecting on this a bit more, my intuition is that this problem is much mo= re difficult than I had hoped; if there is a solution I suspect it involves= much more sophisticated ideas. Many solutions just end up begging the ques= tion by presuming the existence of an uncensorable BB in order to create a = new one; and/or use the blockchain for that function, but that is too slow = and expensive, usually. I'd be happy to be proved wrong, though :)<br> <br> waxwing<br> _______________________________________________<br> bitcoin-dev mailing list<br> <a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">= bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a><br> <a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" = rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mail= man/listinfo/bitcoin-dev</a><br> </blockquote></div> --000000000000d7ec9805b4c68438--