Return-Path: <user@petertodd.org>
Received: from smtp4.osuosl.org (smtp4.osuosl.org [IPv6:2605:bc80:3010::137])
 by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D54D8C002D
 for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
 Tue, 14 Jun 2022 15:34:43 +0000 (UTC)
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
 by smtp4.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3F214161E
 for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
 Tue, 14 Jun 2022 15:34:43 +0000 (UTC)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.802
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.802 tagged_above=-999 required=5
 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1,
 DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7,
 SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001]
 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: smtp4.osuosl.org (amavisd-new);
 dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=petertodd.org header.b="N/d7T/7J";
 dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com
 header.b="NZakTJ88"
Received: from smtp4.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1])
 by localhost (smtp4.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024)
 with ESMTP id DyDuXnbHXcIz
 for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
 Tue, 14 Jun 2022 15:34:42 +0000 (UTC)
X-Greylist: domain auto-whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.8.0
Received: from wout2-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout2-smtp.messagingengine.com
 [64.147.123.25])
 by smtp4.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A01D841619
 for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
 Tue, 14 Jun 2022 15:34:42 +0000 (UTC)
Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43])
 by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E4CF3200933;
 Tue, 14 Jun 2022 11:34:38 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163])
 by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 14 Jun 2022 11:34:38 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=petertodd.org;
 h=cc:cc:content-type:date:date:from:from:in-reply-to
 :in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references:reply-to:sender
 :subject:subject:to:to; s=fm3; t=1655220878; x=1655307278; bh=AJ
 gf0weKUlG0NxpVlYafVNXfHcO+3+Eo0w9rVpup9pE=; b=N/d7T/7JAXCZQ1XUkp
 IDzsygVw+i9O53Aoi51FblwYUNNVYzOILfSoDn0SNEcss63wlN1GkhzvopRygKCQ
 mjlKb57VTGuRgLpjAMqKEBy617ony1hNLGojWKHQy8IcCNq2/oSaRUkHyd1+cGrI
 gJxWkA0evODt0dWCx81VRg2novK5yJEyPRLopr/tJaMi8QfHESdiuppYnTYbWbob
 mSMOcis3jFwIEiUUOMBcepytZMTZVj1GAAkn4kslJ6Ljnm8ec3WKvKpzq/5mb+9h
 Niy+kAx1e3h1ljGVqzROPjxKj7kZ8xhXRArJ+oPrA3zOBNpTsnP9fW6OrqCryQWR
 dm0Q==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=
 messagingengine.com; h=cc:cc:content-type:date:date:feedback-id
 :feedback-id:from:from:in-reply-to:in-reply-to:message-id
 :mime-version:references:reply-to:sender:subject:subject:to:to
 :x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=
 fm2; t=1655220878; x=1655307278; bh=AJgf0weKUlG0NxpVlYafVNXfHcO+
 3+Eo0w9rVpup9pE=; b=NZakTJ88VAzmB5owNyjCTetTV9Mv6IfhZF+nAESvVBMm
 yHUrFYNnYgpW7WUnwaTXiba8AVNcfROB9ZexzWAqYKIZY3WV5Kxa04aCHrvax8MC
 qtOw6gjWW/CTPl9qo02Z+p7fmMBRI/6rN1o/ISDLYxI7t5MVacrFKrVeXXKsvyOd
 n9OOcB0qvPBUwJE/dIx26H+R9nS2s1xtzwMGg7izl1ynAkOoA1b/Gq5pkTqym6Vr
 Aj9UQwLfEOGPFKRI53UFElxYwfAXBQf198e+orYUhkR+D6EsBj85F7tgNtU/orU2
 KB1gIRitrDkCSlqa7Zs1qnyG1cnfwwl2pA5T0mkTRg==
X-ME-Sender: <xms:jaqoYtWR79-Z-Zpqh7laYGzunECnYMrGK7SJ5GKy3Axn2Iii2UqDJQ>
 <xme:jaqoYtmRWAQbQ3xyywCpRTuQ_V_mntRZQ-BDlITy2ZHy6omqfh5DMlYnoMUuypCAd
 K4CKbjTpaqKFbLdus0>
X-ME-Received: <xmr:jaqoYpZnKwYbcQ4Edt7XaaqmlqWbeS6v3LfnnVD562ZNvJkM8pvTvdnHwJCHu8hlGAkVGmJOhhFt9arm_3oWMwlxf01L>
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvfedrudduledgkeekucetufdoteggodetrfdotf
 fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen
 uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpeffhffvvefukfhfgggtuggjsehgtd
 erredttdejnecuhfhrohhmpefrvghtvghrucfvohguugcuoehpvghtvgesphgvthgvrhht
 ohguugdrohhrgheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepfffggfdtgeevjefhteffieduledugf
 egtdetgeehjeeuueeuueeiuedtueduueegnecuffhomhgrihhnpehpvghtvghrthhouggu
 rdhorhhgnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomh
 epuhhsvghrsehpvghtvghrthhouggurdhorhhg
X-ME-Proxy: <xmx:jaqoYgVLt3a0aDLFGG3Kwtq5Gbc2swU6c0lNULnkQAwCrZ7T4YyqzQ>
 <xmx:jaqoYnkzUfT8YAGjMIuaJjiLn8325YKv4NPi-PUleFuDvJ26JRI05g>
 <xmx:jaqoYtc8RN3sNdqafBZj-dLzFQMc4F-efR7T7RfCrzhg__erBCjeWA>
 <xmx:jqqoYvvRSDOkHS78t4_yTzsYaLyxVJDeFxAzgFXfB_NBC8kPj4iw7g>
Feedback-ID: i525146e8:Fastmail
Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Tue,
 14 Jun 2022 11:34:37 -0400 (EDT)
Received: by localhost (Postfix, from userid 1000)
 id DA3C020D53; Tue, 14 Jun 2022 11:34:36 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2022 11:34:36 -0400
From: Peter Todd <pete@petertodd.org>
To: "Undiscussed Horrific Abuse, One Victim of Many" <gmkarl@gmail.com>,
 Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Message-ID: <YqiqjPternXI1AZ6@petertodd.org>
References: <CAD5xwhj1kaJf+QCcf1MOtaAec-xTTr2M9LkJPCu2Ej0L9_3iPg@mail.gmail.com>
 <YlmGv6WbDeDqGJKX@petertodd.org>
 <CAD5xwhgGgq30C7GniNh1_DobPe+P4NTJySUkDiBZBj=OjzO5KA@mail.gmail.com>
 <YmqFRlDIkfbyVIZ2@petertodd.org>
 <CAD5xwhhB+8n+9pWiSCtx3DAPnSwV_7xHnXZ14mEj9H93eWUNEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <YqhtDoN784GG4Cx8@petertodd.org>
 <CALL-=e6ucj0RxM6=Lyrytb3MzQA2pOMwQqM_Gr9RDg3+5Lbudw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALL-=e4=t7YMxDsBrDvR0Bkhagn+x2XnzZMYuoA4C=VXp=R2KA@mail.gmail.com>
 <dy-RmZZGZlQCDyQ_YVeIBIgX4uDW4cfeVpcX5eyugsYoPNZqqjMKs3qoOX_ZidcCBU_3UTytRJMl08TbWQZ363T_E_WQVx_eYJWLzZWUyE8=@protonmail.com>
 <CALL-=e4xA_SVfZp=nLgWRRPon3-6Ke0TE2J0qQrNFGQd7FOsqA@mail.gmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512;
 protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="Kma3SPeoRP6GyPwO"
Content-Disposition: inline
In-Reply-To: <CALL-=e4xA_SVfZp=nLgWRRPon3-6Ke0TE2J0qQrNFGQd7FOsqA@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Why OpenTimestamps does not "linearize" its
 transactions
X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15
Precedence: list
List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev.lists.linuxfoundation.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/options/bitcoin-dev>, 
 <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/>
List-Post: <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
List-Help: <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev>, 
 <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2022 15:34:44 -0000


--Kma3SPeoRP6GyPwO
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Disposition: inline
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Tue, Jun 14, 2022 at 08:45:43AM -0400, Undiscussed Horrific Abuse, One V=
ictim of Many via bitcoin-dev wrote:
> > The basic service that a timestamp service provides is =E2=80=9Cthis co=
ntent (or at
> > least a digest of this content) existed at least as early as this
> > timestamp.=E2=80=9D It says nothing about how long before the timestamp=
 the content
>=20
> OTS needlessly adds the requirement that the user publicize their .ots
> files to everybody who will make use of the timestamp.
>
> This does not provide the service you describe. It would be trivial to
> include enough cryptographic information in the original OP_RETURN, so
> as to obviate the need for publicizing the .ots file.

That approach does not scale. Via merkle trees, the OpenTimestamps system
routinely timestamps tens of thousands of messages with a single transactio=
n:

https://petertodd.org/2016/opentimestamps-announcement#scalability-through-=
aggregation

Client-side validated .ots files are a necessary requirement to achieve this
scalability.

FWIW the most I've personally done is timestamped 750 million items from the
Internet Archive with a single transaction.

> If I send my .ots file to another party, a 4th party can replace it
> with their own, because there is no cryptographic pinning ensuring its
> contents. This changes the timestamp to one later, no longer proving
> the earliness of the data.

They can also simply delete their copy of the data, making it impossible to
prove anything about it.

--=20
https://petertodd.org 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org

--Kma3SPeoRP6GyPwO
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEFcyURjhyM68BBPYTJIFAPaXwkfsFAmKoqogACgkQJIFAPaXw
kfvKwwgAo6teG9MEm1DL5W0VB/SRoJVjUz1wpaZUNgPYDzNZlFDJcQdIorJTxrnZ
KRfvK0b28VXbvVp3aVrnPfQysYsrTS0GgKIK+wS0F7hxfCgq5Y3kg3fsCLvWU25S
SMrSnqBNId9kKLBCpsM7W2StxYmEo1NklyDmF4O5NkjSz8h7mV1rcJZCL2mCXWub
mbbn0y5c52AWkSTRbRliCfFSaNgQIXa/um2TggnEjUdV+whqURynEy4QjYlE2CXI
/2oFcNwFa98vfEuxMT6pNgU6g9q1TMEBEmddd77Wihk6eXtI6glEJkQUXdK+mTwW
YLrVEX41xBSUFCKcE+W5RQfiBEPppA==
=3ztn
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--Kma3SPeoRP6GyPwO--