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In-Reply-To: <80648682-E34A-455E-B34A-6BC24652C3EA@ceptacle.com>
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Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2012 09:02:13 -0800
Message-ID: <CACh7GpHxvWndf=8WfwGaNzLgpZLVEdaPoCvzc1F-Gat6zk-N=g@mail.gmail.com>
From: Mark Friedenbach <mark@monetize.io>
To: Michael Gronager <gronager@ceptacle.com>
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Cc: Bitcoin Dev <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>
Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Chain dust mitigation: Demurrage based
 Chain Vacuuming
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My only comment is that it should be called escheatment, not demurrage ;)

It's relation to demurrage is only that it might be desirable to garbage
collect decayed bit-dust. We looked at it early-on in the Freicoin
development, but rejected it as a possibility due to reasons others have
mentioned, even though we were starting from a hard-fork position.


On Mon, Dec 3, 2012 at 3:19 AM, Michael Gronager <gronager@ceptacle.com>wrote:

> (Also posted on the forum:
> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=128900.0)
>
> The amount of "dust" in the block chain is getting large and it is growing
> all the time. Currently 11% of unspent tx outputs (UTXO) are of 1Satoshi
> (0.00000001BTC), 32% is less than 0.0001BTC and 60% is less than 0.001BTC.
> (Thanks to Jan for digging out these numbers!)
>
> This means that a huge part of the block chain is used for essentially
> nothing - e.g. the sum of the 11% is worth roughly 2 US cents !
>
> The main source for these 1 Satoshi payouts is Sahtoshi Dice. And nothing
> wrong with that, however, we should work on ensuring that too many too
> small payments will not kill the size of the blockchain in the end -
> further, they are essentially too small to be included in other transaction
> as the added fee will often make it more expensive to remove them. Hence,
> there is no incentive to get rid of them.
>
> I have an idea for a possible mitigation of this problem - introduction of
> demurrage - not as in it normal meaning as a percentage over time (see:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demurrage_(currency) btw, this has also been
> tried in freicoin), but as a mean to recycle pennies over time. The
> proposal is simple - UTXOs age out if not re-transacted - the smaller the
> coin the faster the aging:
> 1-99 Satoshi: lives for 210 blocks
> 100-9999 Satoshi: lives for 2100 blocks
> 10000-999999 Satoshi: lives for 21000 blocks
> 1000000-99999999 Satoshi: lives for 210000 blocks
>
> Only amounts above 1BTC lives forever - (or we could even impose aging on
> those too..)
>
> The aged coins are simply included in the block mining reward, creating
> another incentive for miners. Further, if we include all coins in this
> recycle scheme coins will never be lost forever.
>
> This scheme will impose some lifetimes also on e.g. colored coins (hence
> you need to use a certain amount to borrow space on the blockchain for the
> time needed, or simply transact them).
>
> If you like this I would be happy to write it into a BIP.
>
> Thoughts ?
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Keep yourself connected to Go Parallel:
> BUILD Helping you discover the best ways to construct your parallel
> projects.
> http://goparallel.sourceforge.net
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>

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My only comment is that it should be called escheatment, not demurrage ;)<b=
r><br>It&#39;s relation to demurrage is only that it might be desirable to =
garbage collect decayed bit-dust. We looked at it early-on in the Freicoin =
development, but rejected it as a possibility due to reasons others have me=
ntioned, even though we were starting from a hard-fork position.<br>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Dec 3=
, 2012 at 3:19 AM, Michael Gronager <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:gronager@ceptacle.com" target=3D"_blank">gronager@ceptacle.com</a>&gt;</sp=
an> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">(Also posted on the forum: <a href=3D"https:=
//bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3D128900.0" target=3D"_blank">https://bit=
cointalk.org/index.php?topic=3D128900.0</a>)<br>

<br>
The amount of &quot;dust&quot; in the block chain is getting large and it i=
s growing all the time. Currently 11% of unspent tx outputs (UTXO) are of 1=
Satoshi (0.00000001BTC), 32% is less than 0.0001BTC and 60% is less than 0.=
001BTC. (Thanks to Jan for digging out these numbers!)<br>

<br>
This means that a huge part of the block chain is used for essentially noth=
ing - e.g. the sum of the 11% is worth roughly 2 US cents !<br>
<br>
The main source for these 1 Satoshi payouts is Sahtoshi Dice. And nothing w=
rong with that, however, we should work on ensuring that too many too small=
 payments will not kill the size of the blockchain in the end - further, th=
ey are essentially too small to be included in other transaction as the add=
ed fee will often make it more expensive to remove them. Hence, there is no=
 incentive to get rid of them.<br>

<br>
I have an idea for a possible mitigation of this problem - introduction of =
demurrage - not as in it normal meaning as a percentage over time (see:<a h=
ref=3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demurrage_(currency)" target=3D"_blank"=
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demurrage_(currency)</a> btw, this has also b=
een tried in freicoin), but as a mean to recycle pennies over time. The pro=
posal is simple - UTXOs age out if not re-transacted - the smaller the coin=
 the faster the aging:<br>

1-99 Satoshi: lives for 210 blocks<br>
100-9999 Satoshi: lives for 2100 blocks<br>
10000-999999 Satoshi: lives for 21000 blocks<br>
1000000-99999999 Satoshi: lives for 210000 blocks<br>
<br>
Only amounts above 1BTC lives forever - (or we could even impose aging on t=
hose too..)<br>
<br>
The aged coins are simply included in the block mining reward, creating ano=
ther incentive for miners. Further, if we include all coins in this recycle=
 scheme coins will never be lost forever.<br>
<br>
This scheme will impose some lifetimes also on e.g. colored coins (hence yo=
u need to use a certain amount to borrow space on the blockchain for the ti=
me needed, or simply transact them).<br>
<br>
If you like this I would be happy to write it into a BIP.<br>
<br>
Thoughts ?<br>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
---<br>
Keep yourself connected to Go Parallel:<br>
BUILD Helping you discover the best ways to construct your parallel project=
s.<br>
<a href=3D"http://goparallel.sourceforge.net" target=3D"_blank">http://gopa=
rallel.sourceforge.net</a><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Bitcoin-development mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net">Bitcoin-develo=
pment@lists.sourceforge.net</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development=
" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-de=
velopment</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br></div>

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