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From: Jeff Garzik <jgarzik@bitpay.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2014 13:22:56 -0500
Message-ID: <CAJHLa0NMbeVneL3oYkuSUYXgoJYsEjQk_QFuzKZizYWfQnpWvw@mail.gmail.com>
To: Troy Benjegerdes <hozer@hozed.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Cc: Bitcoin Dev <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>
Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Decentralized digital asset exchange with
 honest pricing and market depth
Precedence: list

This is wandering far off-topic for this mailing list.

On Sat, Mar 1, 2014 at 12:45 PM, Troy Benjegerdes <hozer@hozed.org> wrote:
>> > You can make the same argument against Bitcoin itself you know...
>> >
>> > A Bitmessage-like network would be trivial to front-run via a sybil
>> > attack. It's the fundemental problem with marketplaces - the data
>> > they're trying to publish has to be public.
>>
>> I don't see the Bitcoin analogy...
>> Anyway, I still don't think the seller cares, if he sells at the price
>> he was asking, what would he care about "front running" those parallel
>> networks.
>> I've seen many street markets without "public information" and they
>> work just well.
>
> The spot price for ammonia fertilizer, refined gasoline at terminals,
> and price of tea in china are not 'public information', yet these are
> some of the largest traded commodities in the world, far exceeding
> the drop in the bucket that all cryptocoin transactions make.
>
> I'd further argue that the *actual* price of corn (cash bid price at
> elevators and ethanol plants) is not public information either. There
> is a great deal of money traded in collecting and then distributing the
> 'cleared price' information. Have a look at
> http://www.interquote.com/template.cfm?navgroup=aboutlist&urlcode=12&view=1
>
>
>> >> I don't think this will be a tragedy, because like we discussed on
>> >> IRC, I don't think the primary goal of markets is price discovery, but
>> >> trade itself.
>> >>
>> >> About historic data, the actual trades are always public, and some
>> >> kind of "archivers" could collect and maintain old orders for historic
>> >> bid and asks, etc.
>> >
>> > And again, how do you know that record is honest? Fact is without
>> > proof-of-publication you just don't.
>>
>> Well, the trades that appeared in the chain actually occurred.
>> Buying to yourself at fake prices? Be careful, the miner could just
>> separate the order and fill it himself. Or anyone paying a higher fee,
>> for that matter.
>
> You just made my long-term strategic argument for investing in my own
> mining hardware so I can be sure to trade reliably.
>
>> Again, you haven't addressed why the seller cares more about "accurate
>> historic market data" than just his own fees and sell.
>>
>> > You mean a reverse nLockTime that makes a transaction invalid after a
>> > certain amount of time - that's dangerous in a reorg unfortunately as it
>> > can make transactions permenantly invalid.
>
> People who take money from buyers and sellers care most about 'accurate
> historic market data'. I just want to exchange my corn for e85, fertilizer,
> and electricity, and audit the code that runs accounting for the exchange.
>
> I really don't give a shit if there is 'accurate historic market data' as
> long as **MY** personal trade data is accurate and I got a good enough price,
> and I know who I'm dealing with.
>
> I know someone smarter than me and with more money, market leverage, and
> political connections **WILL** game the system and distort the market data
> history so they can take more money from buyers and sellers without actually
> doing some usefull market function.
>
> As long as use buyers and sellers can see the code, and have a good eye for
> knowing when someone's pushing the market around, we can just put our orders
> in and relieve some speculators of their money.
>
> Just get me working code for cross-chain trades, and we'll work on the
> accurate historic data problem later.
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Troy Benjegerdes                 'da hozer'                  hozer@hozed.org
> 7 elements      earth::water::air::fire::mind::spirit::soul        grid.coop
>
>       Never pick a fight with someone who buys ink by the barrel,
>          nor try buy a hacker who makes money by the megahash
>
>
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-- 
Jeff Garzik
Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist
BitPay, Inc.      https://bitpay.com/