Return-Path: Received: from smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (smtp1.linux-foundation.org [172.17.192.35]) by mail.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4471A8A7 for ; Sun, 9 Aug 2015 21:45:46 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6 Received: from mail-la0-f52.google.com (mail-la0-f52.google.com [209.85.215.52]) by smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 92F99183 for ; Sun, 9 Aug 2015 21:45:44 +0000 (UTC) Received: by lahi9 with SMTP id i9so14449957lah.2 for ; Sun, 09 Aug 2015 14:45:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=upgvaK9KkSwEhY2IVQPW6v2xUHj8Nj2Cj4zlWzNkfgo=; b=ta2w685Tp714nk5mSbKs8/AhiK37QHvFf1r0RTxnPLWvd/VdgEPG9HFE1Tg1fDPfC0 ESDDbr05citd5LqZmT9ynNzfyR2gK4PXSChAG9XLKDFGdA/j92GrprP/6mvIZ+GfgWFl 7sCgkeGXNWnb/GNkg2CaC/NT6HuYCLC9KTMaripOCkh0HqDldHA+ENmjk1b1V/DnMqsC Ufluj2SGeFOTgio92Ju+fpqpaJygJp0XLuzeVny3rWeXdgHTCD2v3ZmiHFv9uVFUhb9T djdCLZMziHw94tLNKyVOsVxv4SuM3lHDfmdzOq20U2aNZzR2k/tkORBn6JX7IL2Ao+iW toWw== X-Received: by 10.152.36.226 with SMTP id t2mr17563087laj.6.1439156742835; Sun, 09 Aug 2015 14:45:42 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.25.22.25 with HTTP; Sun, 9 Aug 2015 14:45:23 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <55C79FF0.8040100@thinlink.com> From: Hector Chu Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2015 22:45:23 +0100 Message-ID: To: Tom Harding Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e0158b5e66ed76d051ce7ca6c X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.3 required=5.0 tests=BAD_CREDIT,BAYES_00, DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID,DKIM_VALID_AU,FREEMAIL_FROM,HTML_MESSAGE, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW autolearn=no version=3.3.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on smtp1.linux-foundation.org Cc: Bitcoin Dev Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] What Lightning Is X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Development Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Aug 2015 21:45:46 -0000 --089e0158b5e66ed76d051ce7ca6c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Tom, my understanding is that the money that is debited from a payment hub is simultaneously credited from either another payment hub or the person making the payment, so that the net funds flow at a payment hub always sums to zero. So no, there is no credit advanced by the payment hub to anyone. Given Mark's previous answer of using CPFP and other tricks to pay for the Bitcoin transaction fees, we can assume that Bitcoin fees do not play a part in the payment channel balances. So, the interesting question is what are the costs of running a payment hub? The tx fees that a payment hub would have to pay to settle its Bitcoin transactions would be passed on as a cost to the clients of the payment hub. Also there is a cost to locking up funds in a payment channel (time value of money). The lost interest or opportunity cost on those funds would need to be paid for by its clients as well. And don't forget normal running costs such as networking and electricity. On 9 August 2015 at 22:27, Tom Harding via bitcoin-dev < bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: > On Aug 9, 2015 11:54 AM, "Mark Friedenbach" wrote: > > > On the contrary the funds were advanced by the hub on the creation of > the channel. There is no credit involved. > > That's a chuckle. > > As I said, nothing requires the hub to advance anything, and if it does, > Bob can expect to pay for it. > > We'll see whether hubs assess a fee for depositing funds, whether the fee > depends on the amount deposited, and whether it depends on the amount of > time it stays there. > > I predict "all of the above." There is a name for these kinds of fees. > Can you guess it? > > _______________________________________________ > bitcoin-dev mailing list > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev > > --089e0158b5e66ed76d051ce7ca6c Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Tom, my understanding is that the money that is debited fr= om a payment hub is simultaneously credited from either another payment hub= or the person making the payment, so that the net funds flow at a payment = hub always sums to zero. So no, there is no credit advanced by the payment = hub to anyone.

Given Mark's previous answer of using= CPFP and other tricks to pay for the Bitcoin transaction fees, we can assu= me that Bitcoin fees do not play a part in the payment channel balances.

So, the interesting question is what are the costs o= f running a payment hub? The tx fees that a payment hub would have to pay t= o settle its Bitcoin transactions would be passed on as a cost to the clien= ts of the payment hub. Also there is a cost to locking up funds in a paymen= t channel (time value of money). The lost interest or opportunity cost on t= hose funds would need to be paid for by its clients as well. And don't = forget normal running costs such as networking and electricity.
=

On 9 August 2015 = at 22:27, Tom Harding via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lis= ts.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:

On Aug 9, 2015 11:54 AM, "Mark Fri= edenbach" <mark@friedenbach.org> wrote:

> On the contrary the funds were advanced by the hub on t= he creation of the channel. There is no credit involved.

That's a chuckle.=C2=A0

As I said, nothing requires the hub to advance anything, and= if it does, Bob can expect to pay for it.

We'll see whether hubs assess a fee for depositing funds= , whether the fee depends on the amount deposited, and whether it depends o= n the amount of time it stays there.

I predict "all of the above." There is a name for = these kinds of fees.=C2=A0 Can you guess it?


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