Received: from sog-mx-2.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.192] helo=mx.sourceforge.net) by sfs-ml-3.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1Wbu1J-00068y-R2 for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Sun, 20 Apr 2014 15:51:05 +0000 Received-SPF: pass (sog-mx-2.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com: domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.192.54 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.192.54; envelope-from=etotheipi@gmail.com; helo=mail-qg0-f54.google.com; Received: from mail-qg0-f54.google.com ([209.85.192.54]) by sog-mx-2.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) id 1Wbu1G-0006m7-Av for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Sun, 20 Apr 2014 15:51:05 +0000 Received: by mail-qg0-f54.google.com with SMTP id z60so3255608qgd.13 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 2014 08:50:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.224.0.142 with SMTP id 14mr33267090qab.72.1398009056860; Sun, 20 Apr 2014 08:50:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.85] (c-76-111-96-126.hsd1.md.comcast.net. [76.111.96.126]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id l61sm4509337qge.11.2014.04.20.08.50.56 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sun, 20 Apr 2014 08:50:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5353ECDF.6090903@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2014 11:50:55 -0400 From: Alan Reiner User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net References: <3A69904F-0A3D-42E9-9DE7-067874E710BB@bitsofproof.com> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------010900080400060807050103" X-Spam-Score: 0.4 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net. See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, no trust [209.85.192.54 listed in list.dnswl.org] -1.5 SPF_CHECK_PASS SPF reports sender host as permitted sender for sender-domain 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (etotheipi[at]gmail.com) -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 1.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message -0.1 DKIM_VALID_AU Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from author's domain 0.1 DKIM_SIGNED Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid -0.1 DKIM_VALID Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature 1.0 FREEMAIL_REPLY From and body contain different freemails X-Headers-End: 1Wbu1G-0006m7-Av Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] "bits": Unit of account X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2014 15:51:06 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------010900080400060807050103 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've been a staunch supporter of "microbitcoin" and would like to do anything I can to make sure that we jump directly to it if we're going to promote changing the default units. And I'm happy to integrate it into Armory as a default (with appropriate explanations and settings/options). I'm not so convinced about the "bits" name though -- I do like it, but I do also think that word is too overloaded. Though, I think we could get away with it. (Sadly, I still use "microbes" occasionally (as in *microb*itcoin) when I'm talking to coworkers, because it slips off the tongue and is actually a good combination of brevity and self-explanatory -- it just doesn't instill the right visuals...) We started integrating alternative units into Armory. But, of course, there were a few more loose ends than I expected, which will require some work. We want to put it in but not necessarily change the default right away. I'd /prefer/ we get some commitments from some other wallet developers, so we can make a unified push for it. I'm happy to lead that and make it default as long as I'm not the only one in the world doing it. -Alan On 04/20/2014 11:05 AM, Tamas Blummer wrote: > Here is an earlier reference to bits: > > https://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development%40lists.sourceforge.net/msg04248.html > > > I forgot that Alan Reiner was also supporting a unit equals to bits : > > https://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development%40lists.sourceforge.net/msg04264.html > > > and here the earlier going back to March 2013 and a poll at that time > pushing for XBT being 1 bit > > https://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development%40lists.sourceforge.net/msg04256.html > > > Regards, > > Tamas Blummer > http://bitsofproof.com > > On 20.04.2014, at 16:53, Pieter Wuille > wrote: > >> I told him specifically to bring it here (on a pull request for >> Bitcoin Core), as there is no point in making such convention changes >> to just one client. >> >> I wasn't aware of any discussion about the "bits" proposal here before. >> >> On Sun, Apr 20, 2014 at 4:28 PM, Tamas Blummer > > wrote: >>> People on this list are mostly engineers who have no problem dealing >>> with >>> magnitudes and have rather limited empathy for people who have a problem >>> with them. >>> They also tend to think, that because they invented money 2.0 they >>> would not >>> need to care of finance's or people's current customs. >>> >>> The importance of their decisions in these questions will fade as people >>> already use wallets other than the core. >>> >>> Bring this particular discussion elsewhere, to the wallet developer. >>> >>> BTW the topic was discussed here several times, you have my support >>> and Jeff >>> Garzik's. >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Tamas Blummer >>> http://bitsofproof.com >>> >>> On 20.04.2014, at 15:15, Rob Golding wrote: >>> >>> The average person is not going to be confident that the prefix they >>> are using is the correct one, >>> >>> >>> The use of any 'prefix' is one of choice and entirely unnecessary, >>> and there >>> are already established 'divisions' in u/mBTC for those that feel >>> they need >>> to use such things. >>> >>> people WILL send 1000x more or less than >>> intended if we go down this road, >>> >>> >>> Exceptionally unlikely - I deal every day with currencies with 0, 2 >>> and 3 >>> dp's in amount ranging from 'under 1 whole unit' to tens of >>> thousands - Not >>> once in 20 years has anyone ever 'sent' more or less than intended - oh, >>> they've 'intended' to underpay just fine, but never *unintended*. >>> >>> I propose that users are offered a preference to denominate the >>> Bitcoin currency in a unit called a bit. Where one bitcoin (BTC) >>> equals one million bits (bits) and one bit equals 100 satoshis. >>> >>> >>> I propose that for people unable to understand what a bitcoin is, >>> they can >>> just use satoshi's and drop this entire proposal. >>> >>> Rob >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book >>> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and >>> their >>> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, >>> this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! >>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Bitcoin-development mailing list >>> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book >>> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and >>> their >>> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, >>> this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! >>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Bitcoin-development mailing list >>> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development >>> >> > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book > "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their > applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, > this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! > http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech > > > _______________________________________________ > Bitcoin-development mailing list > Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development --------------010900080400060807050103 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've been a staunch supporter of "microbitcoin" and would like to do anything I can to make sure that we jump directly to it if we're going to promote changing the default units.  And I'm happy to integrate it into Armory as a default (with appropriate explanations and settings/options).  I'm not so convinced about the "bits" name though -- I do like it, but I do also think that word is too overloaded.  Though, I think we could get away with it. 

(Sadly, I still use "microbes" occasionally (as in microbitcoin) when I'm talking to coworkers, because it slips off the tongue and is actually a good combination of brevity and self-explanatory -- it just doesn't instill the right visuals...)

We started integrating alternative units into Armory.  But, of course, there were a few more loose ends than I expected, which will require some work.   We want to put it in but not necessarily change the default right away.  I'd prefer we get some commitments from some other wallet developers, so we can make a unified push for it.  I'm happy to lead that and make it default as long as I'm not the only one in the world doing it.

-Alan



On 04/20/2014 11:05 AM, Tamas Blummer wrote:
Here is an earlier reference to bits:


I forgot that Alan Reiner was also supporting a unit equals to bits :
and here the earlier going back to March 2013 and a poll at that time pushing for XBT being 1 bit


Regards,

Tamas Blummer
http://bitsofproof.com

On 20.04.2014, at 16:53, Pieter Wuille <pieter.wuille@gmail.com> wrote:

I told him specifically to bring it here (on a pull request for
Bitcoin Core), as there is no point in making such convention changes
to just one client.

I wasn't aware of any discussion about the "bits" proposal here before.

On Sun, Apr 20, 2014 at 4:28 PM, Tamas Blummer <tamas@bitsofproof.com> wrote:
People on this list are mostly engineers who have no problem dealing with
magnitudes and have rather limited empathy for people who have a problem
with them.
They also tend to think, that because they invented money 2.0 they would not
need to care of finance's or people's current customs.

The importance of their decisions in these questions will fade as people
already use wallets other than the core.

Bring this particular discussion elsewhere, to the wallet developer.

BTW the topic was discussed here several times, you have my support and Jeff
Garzik's.

Regards,

Tamas Blummer
http://bitsofproof.com

On 20.04.2014, at 15:15, Rob Golding <rob.golding@astutium.com> wrote:

The average person is not going to be confident that the prefix they
are using is the correct one,


The use of any 'prefix' is one of choice and entirely unnecessary, and there
are already established 'divisions' in u/mBTC for those that feel they need
to use such things.

people WILL send 1000x more or less than
intended if we go down this road,


Exceptionally unlikely - I deal every day with currencies with 0, 2 and 3
dp's in amount ranging from 'under 1 whole unit' to tens of thousands - Not
once in 20 years has anyone ever 'sent' more or less than intended - oh,
they've 'intended' to underpay just fine, but never *unintended*.

I propose that users are offered a preference to denominate the
Bitcoin currency in a unit called a bit. Where one bitcoin (BTC)
equals one million bits (bits) and one bit equals 100 satoshis.


I propose that for people unable to understand what a bitcoin is, they can
just use satoshi's and drop this entire proposal.

Rob


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
"Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their
applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
this first edition is now available. Download your free book today!
http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech
_______________________________________________
Bitcoin-development mailing list
Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development



------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
"Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their
applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
this first edition is now available. Download your free book today!
http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech
_______________________________________________
Bitcoin-development mailing list
Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development





------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
"Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their
applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
this first edition is now available. Download your free book today!
http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech


_______________________________________________
Bitcoin-development mailing list
Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development

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