Received: from sog-mx-1.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.191] helo=mx.sourceforge.net) by sfs-ml-4.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1XF4xM-00008H-Sn for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Wed, 06 Aug 2014 17:24:56 +0000 Received-SPF: pass (sog-mx-1.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com: domain of bitpay.com designates 209.85.223.170 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.223.170; envelope-from=jgarzik@bitpay.com; helo=mail-ie0-f170.google.com; Received: from mail-ie0-f170.google.com ([209.85.223.170]) by sog-mx-1.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) id 1XF4xL-0003DV-Ky for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Wed, 06 Aug 2014 17:24:56 +0000 Received: by mail-ie0-f170.google.com with SMTP id rl12so3258662iec.15 for ; Wed, 06 Aug 2014 10:24:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=Ez+NeBXTVP6pKuZh/mgaf1trbpDWlRGKKD9CgStEZhQ=; b=MYyo+3Mbh5WEfG9NLAbqA/POomEHVQh0l2QylkXBV8py7XRAN/BzK+clBK5+JUeXKA Krp0HzaBVchJTVcQ+7xoHGJdRql3mYeO/VV7u8L0NDpjsj2ZMB8UvS7ApTxGsiUbnOKD 7mZ6KmqB866LXkTEJ3DQvn/ZIqjQnP4sH6H0lG0z5QZIGgk8y2M70MpxQG3Jge55iwQu PC3L4J5nNlO4AiqR/gpYbPMvg5y2O4vOWmY6GMfH6fDf7JWzZdhMqpBBOiRnL0aj3Jey zGb/aVJdHAi9tSN0eYuwtVnKs69Qov+BJQ8F1xDVxk0b+rdhYG7pPV8ULF5D3b0djUgX bevg== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQl3ksutUxn01Ft6FV2MXJ3wbpEDydGYSJqbg76/CMd12TCnMXXtayDmjkUl6IYX80uvqZeA X-Received: by 10.50.33.16 with SMTP id n16mr59958035igi.15.1407345889951; Wed, 06 Aug 2014 10:24:49 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.107.10.78 with HTTP; Wed, 6 Aug 2014 10:24:28 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <53E25F8A.5070905@thinlink.com> References: <53E1A8AF.4030206@thinlink.com> <53E23F49.3020605@thinlink.com> <63a80796-609e-43f5-9280-4cd8cf5d2648@email.android.com> <53E25F8A.5070905@thinlink.com> From: Jeff Garzik Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2014 13:24:28 -0400 Message-ID: To: Tom Harding Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e0153840cda57c104fff93faa X-Spam-Score: -0.6 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net. See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. -1.5 SPF_CHECK_PASS SPF reports sender host as permitted sender for sender-domain -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 1.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message -0.1 DKIM_VALID_AU Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from author's domain 0.1 DKIM_SIGNED Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid -0.1 DKIM_VALID Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature X-Headers-End: 1XF4xL-0003DV-Ky Cc: Bitcoin Dev Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] deterministic transaction expiration X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2014 17:24:57 -0000 --089e0153840cda57c104fff93faa Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 That won't necessarily work through large reorgs. You don't want to create a situation where a miner cannot mine a previously mined transactions. On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 1:02 PM, Tom Harding wrote: > > Today we have first-eligible-height (nLockTime), and mempool expiration > measured from this height would work for the goals being discussed, no fork > or protocol rev. > > With first-eligible-height and last-eligible-height, creator could choose > a lifetime shorter than the max, and in addition, lock the whole thing > until some point in the future. > > > > On 8/6/2014 9:15 AM, Jeff Garzik wrote: > > A fork is not necessarily required, if you are talking about information > that deals primarily with pre-consensus mempool behavior. You can make a > "network TX" with some information that is digitally signed, yet discarded > before it reaches miners. > > > On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 11:42 AM, Peter Todd wrote: > >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >> Hash: SHA256 >> >> >> >> On 6 August 2014 08:17:02 GMT-07:00, Christian Decker < >> decker.christian@gmail.com> wrote: >> >+1 for the new field, overloading fields with new meaning is definitely >> >not >> >a good idea. >> >> To add a new field the best way to do it is create a new, parallel, tx >> format where fields are committed by merkle radix tree in an extensible and >> provable way. You'd then commit to that tree with a mandatory OP_RETURN >> output in the last txout, or with a new merkle root. >> >> Changing the tx format itself in a hard-fork is needlessly disruptive, >> and in this case, wastes opportunities for improvement. >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- >> Version: APG v1.1.1 >> >> iQFQBAEBCAA6BQJT4kzQMxxQZXRlciBUb2RkIChsb3cgc2VjdXJpdHkga2V5KSA8 >> cGV0ZUBwZXRlcnRvZGQub3JnPgAKCRAZnIM7qOfwhamzCAC+zRaXRodP63+ke3K+ >> Viapiepvk4uIOlqxqtMB2O0zWcyu2+xCJDiRPykK/6HLDBeFDEC9/dGK8++Lovl6 >> //qZ340LOPFlgT2kYy9E5h/yX469fhtsWhBCv2K47fWwkMS0S/0r4SQnCkbt2R2c >> 4dQjkoldhw6rNMBTUmwvhSlL30KsT/msWTZiX7DW/YjfOzezEJzy+mYyKp9Sk7ba >> 1fOiBXORk7mNOs7sTYTvje3sqEGpGTOLP08cY/RCEvl6bG8mHkPqwiojq+3biHFP >> RsoBVu1f5cbnU7Wq0gPNdVnQssnEQDadyTX8gT0Wze7PuVyaZT2mXFZBKzSHuLy2 >> sJKN >> =oPSo >> -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- >> >> > > > -- > Jeff Garzik > Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist > BitPay, Inc. https://bitpay.com/ > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Infragistics Professional > Build stunning WinForms apps today! > Reboot your WinForms applications with our WinForms controls. > Build a bridge from your legacy apps to the future.http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=153845071&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk > > > > _______________________________________________ > Bitcoin-development mailing listBitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.nethttps://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Infragistics Professional > Build stunning WinForms apps today! > Reboot your WinForms applications with our WinForms controls. > Build a bridge from your legacy apps to the future. > > http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=153845071&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk > _______________________________________________ > Bitcoin-development mailing list > Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development > > -- Jeff Garzik Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist BitPay, Inc. https://bitpay.com/ --089e0153840cda57c104fff93faa Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
That won't necessarily work through large reorgs.=C2= =A0 You don't want to create a situation where a miner cannot mine a pr= eviously mined transactions.


On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 1:02 PM, Tom Harding <tomh@thinlink.com> wrote:
=20 =20 =20

Today we have first-eligible-height (nLockTime), and mempool expiration measured from this height would work for the goals being discussed, no fork or protocol rev.

With first-eligible-height and last-eligible-height, creator could choose a lifetime shorter than the max,=C2=A0 and in addition, lock the whole thing until some point in the future.



On 8/6/2014 9:15 AM, Jeff Garzik wrote:
A fork is not necessarily required, if you are talking about information that deals primarily with pre-consensus mempool behavior.=C2=A0 You can make a "network = TX" with some information that is digitally signed, yet discarded before it reaches miners.


On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 11:42 AM, Peter Todd <pete@petertodd.org> wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256



On 6 August 2014 08:17:02 GMT-07:00, Christian Decker <decker.christi= an@gmail.com> wrote:
>+1 for the new field, overloading fields with new meaning is definitely
>not
>a good idea.

To add a new field the best way to do it is create a new, parallel, tx format where fields are committed by merkle radix tree in an extensible and provable way. You'd then commit to that tree with a mandatory OP_RETURN output in the last txout, or with a new merkle root.

Changing the tx format itself in a hard-fork is needlessly disruptive, and in this case, wastes opportunities for improvement.
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--
Jeff Garzik
Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist
BitPay, Inc. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://bitpay.com/ 


------------------------------------=
------------------------------------------
Infragistics Professional
Build stunning WinForms apps today!
Reboot your WinForms applications with our WinForms controls.=20
Build a bridge from your legacy apps to the future.
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gam=
pad/clk?id=3D153845071&iu=3D/4140/ostg.clktrk


_______________________________________________
Bitcoin-development mailing list
Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-de=
velopment


-----------------------------------------------------------------------= -------
Infragistics Professional
Build stunning WinForms apps today!
Reboot your WinForms applications with our WinForms controls.
Build a bridge from your legacy apps to the future.
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gam= pad/clk?id=3D153845071&iu=3D/4140/ostg.clktrk
__________________= _____________________________
Bitcoin-development mailing list
Bitcoin-develo= pment@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-de= velopment




--
Jeff Garzik
Bitc= oin core developer and open source evangelist
BitPay, Inc. =C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0https://bitpay.com= /
--089e0153840cda57c104fff93faa--