Return-Path: Received: from smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (smtp1.linux-foundation.org [172.17.192.35]) by mail.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5E818CEA for ; Mon, 11 Dec 2017 18:28:45 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6 Received: from mail-it0-f53.google.com (mail-it0-f53.google.com [209.85.214.53]) by smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8A037D0 for ; Mon, 11 Dec 2017 18:28:44 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-it0-f53.google.com with SMTP id f143so18087160itb.0 for ; Mon, 11 Dec 2017 10:28:44 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=4+MQ/nXyaHiI3JwFcvsuLndi9gc0/9OKOm+EQbSZ2y4=; b=LrDNgMueoNLf48ZI3D1GIzkHqOda7sUeLe6GHjczLMFmUFRhjtOybTZsuGgwK17DjL mjtXPwTpifNssX771Y5ALuNlu6FkIFgFAJlghzCz/essfqDg5spY8d86d8RKfsmiECsZ U0GnUmCxEIwjpl1PuIzMpJDBTSfuZNE3hCgtqJELMNowBLRQbaTYj1GXbI0lVH6Yyzg5 IN3ec1YAHBfTRP3DMiGNVFrs7Z+Crxb30ylZ8GTxjkRTOPfBnaS6Y/S1SzDfMpSDFux6 otWe6YQsxTjjkBIPN7sIrSUM4OmbdT75ryRD81gq1ajHmiIcmX2MwjXJpQ+V5uW1l4HS Dp2Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=4+MQ/nXyaHiI3JwFcvsuLndi9gc0/9OKOm+EQbSZ2y4=; b=aN7DRi52zDE59H8SMPPcfksqAUuF4STuP18M+hGuGhVrjna9Z8Di1xqvIu3ZfV7j7F VAfZLPX30sKJH7oMhM2xeoyh/OXvjHzvLHLNsf3yeEFYgk6mzHgD5/wMRDcBYb9J2Vo2 5ZUfWNzFEcQCGEuM+T+qaMne6C6Vy+9QJGZLh9rVZzWXQzNErsi/88a5wSAk6uvyxs4a 1NyKijdKhkx7GIf024cG9+Y9NqtKKg8drd/VgZw+/ZRQQNWuDxtaYX4tDBCaWwwbAiWz ak7T1TH2WAjkhUsWdjsv3nIPtNsKSFAZkZYyk7LNqTQngMSGeD3VXRPUpIg5ZAPOvUeU D1aA== X-Gm-Message-State: AKGB3mJTjWvoSHcHIsCqXykedolLkjHDT6MUYLROVK5k70fdPlSI1SSd vfJduNnIBIBHcJyOTQyJkndLHNsivJGyIzT38OU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACJfBossS983S+e4IX3tp8IzArGkZ35CnSORYigCVsIXcBXNypIQ2Y0zZRDdv0wAKEf9pRvZ/q782huymLTMnpvNKJA= X-Received: by 10.107.201.78 with SMTP id z75mr1807738iof.123.1513016923842; Mon, 11 Dec 2017 10:28:43 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.79.12.65 with HTTP; Mon, 11 Dec 2017 10:28:03 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: From: Chris Riley Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2017 13:28:03 -0500 Message-ID: To: Teweldemedhin Aberra , Bitcoin Protocol Discussion Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="94eb2c0c100648f36f056014b4ef" X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU, FREEMAIL_FROM, HTML_MESSAGE, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW, T_REMOTE_IMAGE autolearn=ham version=3.3.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on smtp1.linux-foundation.org X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 11 Dec 2017 18:30:45 +0000 Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] BIP - Dead Man's Switch X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2017 18:28:45 -0000 --94eb2c0c100648f36f056014b4ef Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi, 1. If there are 16.4 million mined and 4 million are lost, that results in 12.4 million in circulation vs 14.4 million. 2. Satoshi addressed this as have numerous other people ( https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=198.msg1647#msg1647 ) - lost coins decrease supply, increasing value of the remaining coins. 3. This assumes this is a problem. Bitcoin is divisible, 100 million, potentially more if necessary. ( https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Help:FAQ#How_divisible_are_bitcoins.3F) 4. Why is it okay to steal bitcoins from people who's bitcoins have been "dormant" for a fixed period, 10 years in your example? 5. What happens to bitcoins that, say, Hal Finney still had (if any) and he put in cold storage while he is in ultimate cold storage ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hal_Finney_(computer_scientist)#Death) ? Ditto for someone, say, in a coma for 11 years, in jail for 11 years or any other similar event? Or a 20 year old sets aside coins for retirement. The following year, the system is changed, and when he looks again after not paying attention for a decade or two, they are gone. 6. This encourages censorship by miners for people attempting to move coins. 7. This has been discussed many times before and everyone is welcome to fork bitcoin code and the block chain and convince people to follow this chain and code. Then you can see if you can get many people to agree that this is a good idea. On Mon, Dec 11, 2017 at 12:30 PM, Teweldemedhin Aberra via bitcoin-dev < bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: > It is estimated that about 4 million of the about 16.4 Bitcoins ever mined > are lost forever because no one knows the private keys of some Bitcoin > addresses. This effectively mean there are actually only 14.4 million > Bitcoins in circulation even though 16.4 million are mined. There is no way > of eliminating the human errors that cause these losses of Bitcoin from > circulation, while the number of Bitcoin that will ever be mined is capped > at 21 million. This means the total number of Bitcoins that are in > circulation will eventually become zero, bringing the network to an end. > > The solution this BIP proposes is to implementing a dead man's switch to > Bitcoin addresses. The dead man's switch causes the Bitcoins assigned to > dormant addresses to automatically expire. A Bitcoin address is deemed > dormant if it is not used in transactions for some fixed length of time, > say ten years. > > The calculation of the miner's reward should take into account the > Bitcoins that has expired. This means there is a possibility that miner's > reward can increase if sufficient number of Bitcoins expire. > > Ref: > > http://fortune.com/2017/11/25/lost-bitcoins/ > > > > Virus-free. > www.avast.com > > <#m_2495265241835744459_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > > _______________________________________________ > bitcoin-dev mailing list > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev > > --94eb2c0c100648f36f056014b4ef Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,
1. If there are 16.4 million mined and 4 million a= re lost, that results in 12.4 million in circulation vs 14.4 million.
=
2. Satoshi addressed this as have numerous other people (https://bitcoi= ntalk.org/index.php?topic=3D198.msg1647#msg1647 ) - lost coins decrease= supply, increasing value of the remaining coins.
3. This assumes= this is a problem.=C2=A0 Bitcoin is divisible, 100 million, potentially mo= re if necessary. (https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Help:FAQ#How_divisible_are_= bitcoins.3F)
4. Why is it okay to steal bitcoins from people = who's bitcoins have been "dormant" for a fixed period, 10 yea= rs in your example?
5. What happens to bitcoins that, say, Hal Fi= nney still had (if any) and he put in cold storage while he is in ultimate = cold storage (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hal_Finney_(computer_scien= tist)#Death)=C2=A0?=C2=A0 Ditto for someone, say, in a coma for 11 year= s, in jail for 11 years or any other similar event?=C2=A0 Or a 20 year old = sets aside coins for retirement.=C2=A0 The following year, the system is ch= anged, and when he looks again after not paying attention for a decade or t= wo, they are gone.
6. This encourages censorship by miners for pe= ople attempting to move coins.
7. This has been discussed many ti= mes before and everyone is welcome to fork bitcoin code and the block chain= and convince people to follow this chain and code.=C2=A0 Then you can see = if you can get many people to agree that this is a good idea.








On Mon, Dec 11, 2017 at 12:30 PM, Teweldemedhin Aberra via= bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:

It is estimated t= hat about 4 million of the about 16.4 Bitcoins ever mined are lost forever = because no one knows the private keys of some Bitcoin addresses. This effec= tively mean there are actually only 14.4 million Bitcoins in circulation ev= en though 16.4 million are mined. There is no way of eliminating the human = errors that cause these losses of Bitcoin from circulation, while the numbe= r of Bitcoin that will ever be mined is capped at 21 million. This means th= e total number of Bitcoins that are in circulation will eventually become z= ero, bringing the network to an end.

The solution this BIP proposes is= to implementing a dead man's switch to Bitcoin addresses. The dead man= 's switch causes the Bitcoins assigned to dormant addresses to automati= cally expire. A Bitcoin address is deemed dormant if it is not used in tran= sactions for some fixed length of time, say ten years.

The calculation of = the miner's reward should take into account the Bitcoins that has expir= ed. This means there is a possibility that miner's reward can increase = if sufficient number of Bitcoins expire.


Ref:

http://fortune.com/20= 17/11/25/lost-bitcoins/



3D"" Virus-free. www.avast.com

_______________________________________________
bitcoin-dev mailing list
bitcoin-dev@lists.= linuxfoundation.org
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org= /mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev


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