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From: =?UTF-8?B?Sm9yZ2UgVGltw7Nu?= <jtimon@jtimon.cc>
Date: Sat, 22 May 2021 21:35:03 +0100
Message-ID: <CABm2gDq5hMN+-BUfY07KEDca0wCjN4G=iWptenBhzjZ3X9Mn7w@mail.gmail.com>
To: "Raystonn ." <raystonn@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000350ea205c2f11de9"
Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Consensus protocol immutability is a feature
Precedence: list

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Hardforks can be useful too.
But, yes, I agree softforks are preferable whenever possible.

On Sat, May 22, 2021, 20:55 Raystonn . <raystonn@hotmail.com> wrote:

> None of these required a hard fork.  I should rephrase my previous email
> to clarify the intended topic as hard consensus changes, requiring a hard
> fork.  "Soft" forks can be useful.
>
> Raystonn
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Jorge Tim=C3=B3n <jtimon@jtimon.cc>
> *Sent:* Saturday, May 22, 2021 7:55 AM
> *To:* Raystonn . <raystonn@hotmail.com>; Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [bitcoin-dev] Consensus protocol immutability is a feature
>
> That is clearly not true. People entretain making changes to the protocol
> all the time. Bitcoin is far from perfect and not improving it would be
> stupid in my opinion.
> Some improvements require changes to the consensus rules.
> Recent changes include relative lock time verify or segwit. These are
> important changes that made things like lightning much easier and efficie=
nt
> than they could possibly be without them.
> Taproot, which is a recent proposal, could help simplify the lightning
> protocol even further, and make it more efficient and its usage more
> private. And there are more use cases.
>
> There have been consensus rule changes since bitcoin started, and with
> good reason. As a user, you can always oppose new changes. And if enough
> users agree with you, you will be able to maintain your own chain with th=
e
> old rules. At the same time, there's nothing you can do to stop other use=
rs
> who want those changes from coordinating with each other to adopt them.
>
> Perhaps you're interested in bip99, which discusses consensus rule change=
s
> in more detail.
>
>
>
> On Sat, May 22, 2021, 13:09 Raystonn . via bitcoin-dev <
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>
> Suggestions to make changes to Bitcoin's consensus protocol will only eve=
r
> be entertained if Bitcoin is completely dead without such a change.  Any
> attempt to change consensus protocol without a clear and convincing
> demonstration to the entire network of participants that Bitcoin will die
> without that change is a waste of your own time.  Bitcoin's resistance to
> consensus changes is a feature that makes it resistant to being coopted a=
nd
> corrupted.  I recommend developers focus on making improvements that do n=
ot
> attempt to change the consensus protocol.  Otherwise, you are simply
> working on an altcoin, which is off-topic here.
>
> Raystonn
>
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>
>

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<div dir=3D"auto">Hardforks can be useful too.<div dir=3D"auto">But, yes, I=
 agree softforks are preferable whenever possible.</div></div><br><div clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sat, May 22, 202=
1, 20:55 Raystonn . &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:raystonn@hotmail.com">raystonn@ho=
tmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">



<div>
<div>None of these required a hard fork.=C2=A0 I should rephrase my previou=
s email to clarify the intended topic as hard consensus changes, requiring =
a hard fork.=C2=A0 &quot;Soft&quot; forks can be useful.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Raystonn</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<hr style=3D"display:inline-block;width:98%">
<div id=3D"m_-7824564330417626593divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"C=
alibri, sans-serif" style=3D"font-size:11pt" color=3D"#000000"><b>From:</b>=
 Jorge Tim=C3=B3n &lt;jtimon@jtimon.cc&gt;<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, May 22, 2021 7:55 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Raystonn . &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:raystonn@hotmail.com" target=3D=
"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">raystonn@hotmail.com</a>&gt;; Bitcoin Protocol =
Discussion &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" tar=
get=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>=
&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [bitcoin-dev] Consensus protocol immutability is a feat=
ure</font>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
</div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"auto">That is clearly not true. People entretain making changes=
 to the protocol all the time. Bitcoin is far from perfect and not improvin=
g it would be stupid in my opinion.
<div dir=3D"auto">Some improvements require changes to the consensus rules.=
</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">Recent changes include relative lock time verify or segwi=
t. These are important changes that made things like lightning much easier =
and efficient than they could possibly be without them.</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">Taproot, which is a recent proposal, could help simplify =
the lightning protocol even further, and make it more efficient and its usa=
ge more private. And there are more use cases.</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">There have been consensus rule changes since bitcoin star=
ted, and with good reason. As a user, you can always oppose new changes. An=
d if enough users agree with you, you will be able to maintain your own cha=
in with the old rules. At the same
 time, there&#39;s nothing you can do to stop other users who want those ch=
anges from coordinating with each other to adopt them.</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">Perhaps you&#39;re interested in bip99, which discusses c=
onsensus rule changes in more detail.</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">On Sat, May 22, 2021, 13:09 Raystonn . via bitcoin-dev &lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank"=
 rel=3D"noreferrer">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br=
>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-l=
eft:1ex">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color=
:rgb(0,0,0)">
Suggestions to make changes to Bitcoin&#39;s consensus protocol will only e=
ver be entertained if Bitcoin is completely dead without such a change.=C2=
=A0=C2=A0<span style=3D"background-color:rgb(255,255,255);display:inline!im=
portant">Any attempt to change consensus protocol
 without a clear and convincing demonstration to the entire network of part=
icipants that Bitcoin will die without that change is a waste of your own t=
ime.=C2=A0=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,=
Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt">Bitcoin&#39;s
 resistance to consensus changes is a feature that makes it resistant to be=
ing coopted and corrupted.=C2=A0 I recommend developers focus on making imp=
rovements that do not attempt to change the consensus protocol.=C2=A0 Other=
wise, you are simply working on an altcoin,
 which is off-topic here.</span></div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color=
:rgb(0,0,0)">
<span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;fo=
nt-size:12pt"><br>
</span></div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color=
:rgb(0,0,0)">
Raystonn</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color=
:rgb(0,0,0)">
<br>
</div>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br>
bitcoin-dev mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" rel=3D"noreferrer =
noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" =
rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.li=
nuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev</a><br>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div>

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