Return-Path: Received: from smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (smtp1.linux-foundation.org [172.17.192.35]) by mail.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 573BD707 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 2015 17:48:07 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: domain auto-whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6 Received: from COL004-OMC1S6.hotmail.com (col004-omc1s6.hotmail.com [65.55.34.16]) by smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9AF48A9 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 2015 17:48:06 +0000 (UTC) Received: from COL131-DS3 ([65.55.34.8]) by COL004-OMC1S6.hotmail.com over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(7.5.7601.23008); Wed, 29 Jul 2015 10:48:06 -0700 X-TMN: [AIMCJELUUafbp7Y/HrqE1mO60KsbGy6i] X-Originating-Email: [raystonn@hotmail.com] Message-ID: From: "Raystonn ." To: "Vali Zero" , References: <543015348.4948849.1438178962054.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <543015348.4948849.1438178962054.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2015 10:47:50 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00B2_01D0C9EC.036B4190" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 15.4.3555.308 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V15.4.3555.308 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Jul 2015 17:48:06.0476 (UTC) FILETIME=[B99370C0:01D0CA26] X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_20,FIN_FREE, FREEMAIL_FROM, HTML_MESSAGE, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW, RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=no version=3.3.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on smtp1.linux-foundation.org Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] =?utf-8?q?R=C4=83spuns=3A__Personal_opinion_on_the_?= =?utf-8?q?fee_market_from_a_worried_local_trader?= X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Development Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2015 17:48:07 -0000 ------=_NextPart_000_00B2_01D0C9EC.036B4190 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > When a category of users would get priced out because of the fee = market, they would be free to use any altcoin they want. I believe that pretty well sums up where we=E2=80=99re headed if = transaction rate is artificially limited, whether that be by maximum = block size limit or something else. A fee market will necessarily = include more than just Bitcoin. The reality is it=E2=80=99s very easy = to trade value across different blockchains, and thus a fee market will = bleed value from Bitcoin and give it to alternative blockchains. If = Bitcoin=E2=80=99s blocks are at maximum capacity, people will exchange = for something that allows them to transact with a lesser fee, then make = the desired payment. This adds value to the alternative blockchain and = removes it from Bitcoin. Anyone thinking the fee market can be restrained to Bitcoin alone is = mistaken. From: Vali Zero via bitcoin-dev=20 Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2015 7:09 AM To: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org=20 Subject: [bitcoin-dev] R=C4=83spuns: Personal opinion on the fee market = from a worried local trader I am disappointed that you did not understand my point of view. Let me = rephrase it for you, People tipping, buying 0.99$ products and gamblers that need Bitcoin = transactions *more* than the rest of the people will afford the fees = that establish the equilibrium between demand and supply of Bitcoin = transactions. The people are free to use they money for whatever they = like, but you should understand that Bitcoin transactions are not free. I was merely attempting to point out that spammers and gamblers would be = the first ones that would go away. They would be free to spam or gamble, = but they would have to pay for it. When a category of users would get priced out because of the fee market, = they would be free to use any altcoin they want. Please understand that not everyone will leave. The more important = players will remain, those that need it the most. The other players are = free to use whatever altcoin they wish. =C3=8En Miercuri, 29 Iulie 2015 16:47:57, Angel Leon = a scris: "the gamblers and perhaps people transacting very low amounts. The = people that actually need Bitcoin would remain." so people tipping, buying $0.99 products, and gamblers actually don't = need Bitcoin. Who are you to say what people need to use money for?=20 This statement goes against the freedom of decentralization and = financial freedom Bitcoin should be able to provide. It's an open network and it will be used as most users see fit, and that = requires a blocksize increase wether you like it or not, it's simple = physics, other time wait times will become unbearable for those not = willing to pay the high fees, if people leave, then it only mean = bitcoins isn't useful, and if bitcoin isn't useful, it's worthless. http://twitter.com/gubatron On Wed, Jul 29, 2015 at 9:27 AM, Vali Zero via bitcoin-dev = wrote: Hello, I have been reading an argument saying that paying higher fees would = scare Bitcoin users and they would stop using it, preferring bank = transfers or other payment methods. This does not make sense for me. If = some users leave, then demand for bitcoin transactions goes down and so = do the fees. The others remain. Fee market means that an equilibrium is found between the demand for = bitcoin transactions and the available supply (given by the block size). = The fee is the price that finds this equilibrium. If a fee market starts to exist, the first ones to leave are the = spammers, probably followed by the gamblers and perhaps people = transacting very low amounts. The people that actually need Bitcoin = would remain. Please allow this fee market to form... In the absence of a functioning fee market, I will refuse to run = Bitcoin code that increases the block size and will do my best to tell = everyone I know not to upgrade towards running such code. If Bitcoin = succombs to the free stuff army, I will sell all the coins and leave. = Nothing is for free. I apologize for any exagerations, but I just felt strongly towards = expressing my opinion here. I'm only a local Bitcoin trader, computer = engineer, with a reasonable understanding of free markets. And I'm = running only one full node. Kind regards, Valentin _______________________________________________ bitcoin-dev mailing list bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- _______________________________________________ bitcoin-dev mailing list bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev ------=_NextPart_000_00B2_01D0C9EC.036B4190 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> When a = category of=20 users would get priced out because of the fee market, they would be free = to use=20 any altcoin they want.
 
I believe that pretty well sums up = where we=E2=80=99re=20 headed if transaction rate is artificially limited, whether that be by = maximum=20 block size limit or something else.  A fee market will necessarily = include=20 more than just Bitcoin.  The reality is it=E2=80=99s very easy to = trade value=20 across different blockchains, and thus a fee market will bleed value = from=20 Bitcoin and give it to alternative blockchains.  If = Bitcoin=E2=80=99s blocks are at=20 maximum capacity, people will exchange for something that allows them to = transact with a lesser fee, then make the desired payment.  This = adds value=20 to the alternative blockchain and removes it from Bitcoin.
 
Anyone thinking the fee market can = be=20 restrained to Bitcoin alone is mistaken.

 
From: Vali Zero via=20 bitcoin-dev
Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2015 7:09 AM
Subject: [bitcoin-dev] R=C4=83spuns: Personal opinion on the = fee market=20 from a worried local trader
 
I am disappointed that you did not understand my point of view. Let = me=20 rephrase it for you,
 
People tipping, buying 0.99$ products and gamblers that need = Bitcoin=20 transactions *more* than the rest of the people will afford the fees = that=20 establish the equilibrium between demand and supply of Bitcoin = transactions. The=20 people are free to use they money for whatever they like, but you should = understand that Bitcoin transactions are not free.
 
I was merely attempting to point out that spammers and = gamblers=20 would be the first ones that would go away. They would be free to spam = or=20 gamble, but they would have to pay for it.
 
When a category of users would get priced out because of = the fee=20 market, they would be free to use any altcoin they want.
 
Please understand = that not=20 everyone will leave. The more important players will remain, those that = need it=20 the most. The other players are free to use whatever altcoin they = wish.
 
 
=C3=8En = Miercuri, 29 Iulie 2015=20 16:47:57, Angel Leon <gubatron@gmail.com> a=20 scris:


"the=20 gamblers and perhaps people transacting very low amounts. The=20 people that actually need Bitcoin would remain."

so=20 people tipping, buying $0.99 products, and gamblers actually don't need=20 Bitcoin.
Who are you to say what people need to use = money=20 for?=20
This=20 statement goes against the freedom of decentralization and financial = freedom=20 Bitcoin should be able to provide.
It's an open network and it will be used as most users see = fit, and=20 that requires a blocksize increase wether you like it or not, it's = simple=20 physics, other time wait times will become unbearable for those not = willing to=20 pay the high fees, if people leave, then it only mean bitcoins isn't = useful, and=20 if bitcoin isn't useful, it's worthless.

 
http://twitter.com/gubatron
 
On Wed,=20 Jul 29, 2015 at 9:27 AM, Vali Zero via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@list= s.linuxfoundation.org>=20 wrote:
Hello,
I have been reading an argument saying that paying higher = fees=20 would scare Bitcoin users and they would stop using it, preferring = bank=20 transfers or other payment methods. This does not make sense for me. = If some=20 users leave, then demand for bitcoin transactions goes down and so do = the=20 fees. The others remain.

Fee market = means that an=20 equilibrium is found between the demand for bitcoin transactions and = the=20 available supply (given by the block size). The fee is the price that = finds=20 this equilibrium.

If a fee market = starts to=20 exist, the first ones to leave are the spammers, probably followed by = the=20 gamblers and perhaps people transacting very low amounts. The people = that=20 actually need Bitcoin would remain.

Please allow=20 this fee market to form...

In the = absence of a=20 functioning fee market, I will refuse to run Bitcoin code that = increases the=20 block size and will do my best to tell everyone I know not to upgrade = towards=20 running such code. If Bitcoin succombs to the free stuff army, I will = sell all=20 the coins and leave. Nothing is for free.

I=20 apologize for any exagerations, but I just felt strongly towards = expressing my=20 opinion here. I'm only a local Bitcoin trader, computer engineer, with = a=20 reasonable understanding of free markets. And I'm running only one = full=20 node.

Kind regards,
Valentin
_______________________________________________bitcoin-dev mailing list
bitcoin-dev@list= s.linuxfoundation.orghttps://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoi= n-dev
 


=

_______________________________________________
bitcoin-dev mailing=20 list
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
https://lists.linuxfound= ation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
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