Received: from sog-mx-3.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.193] helo=mx.sourceforge.net) by sfs-ml-1.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1YPZLQ-0003tb-RD for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Sun, 22 Feb 2015 16:25:24 +0000 Received-SPF: pass (sog-mx-3.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com: domain of riseup.net designates 198.252.153.129 as permitted sender) client-ip=198.252.153.129; envelope-from=justusranvier@riseup.net; helo=mx1.riseup.net; Received: from mx1.riseup.net ([198.252.153.129]) by sog-mx-3.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.76) id 1YPZLO-0008VF-Tc for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Sun, 22 Feb 2015 16:25:24 +0000 Received: from berryeater.riseup.net (berryeater-pn.riseup.net [10.0.1.120]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "COMODO RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E26AF404D1 for ; Sun, 22 Feb 2015 16:25:16 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (Authenticated sender: justusranvier) with ESMTPSA id 72659426FE Received: from [192.168.202.178] (unknown [192.168.202.178]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by nobelium.whale.ddns.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 33D90DD73D for ; Sun, 22 Feb 2015 10:25:25 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <54EA02E7.8060708@localhost.local> Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2015 10:25:11 -0600 From: Justus Ranvier MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net References: <20150222123428.GA6570@savin.petertodd.org> <2953246.T2DHreG0Tu@crushinator> <54E9FD05.3000807@localhost.local> In-Reply-To: OpenPGP: id=EAD9E623; url=http://pgp.mit.edu/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x2A5FDA70EAD9E623 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------070202020508080604020804" X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.98.5 at mx1 X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net. See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. -1.5 SPF_CHECK_PASS SPF reports sender host as permitted sender for sender-domain -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, no trust [198.252.153.129 listed in list.dnswl.org] -0.0 SPF_HELO_PASS SPF: HELO matches SPF record -0.0 T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD Envelope sender domain matches handover relay domain -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 0.1 DKIM_SIGNED Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid 0.0 T_DKIM_INVALID DKIM-Signature header exists but is not valid 0.0 UNPARSEABLE_RELAY Informational: message has unparseable relay lines X-Headers-End: 1YPZLO-0008VF-Tc Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] alternate proposal opt-in miner takes double-spend (Re: replace-by-fee v0.10.0rc4) X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2015 16:25:24 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------070202020508080604020804 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 02/22/2015 10:17 AM, Natanael wrote: > The problem with this approach is that it is worthless as a > predictor. We aren't dealing with traffic safety and road design - > we are dealing with adaptive attackers and malicious miners and > pools. >=20 > Anything which does not invalidate blocks carrying doublespends > WILL allow malicious miners and pools to conspire with thieves to > steal money. The probability of being hit will then be (their > proliferation in your business area) * (their fraction of the > mining power). >=20 > That might seem to give small numbers for most sets of reasonable=20 > assumptions. But the problem is that's only an average, and the > people being hit might have small profit margins - one successful > attack can place hundreds of merchants in red numbers and force > them to shut down. >=20 > You should never expose yourself to attacks which you can't defend > against and which can be fatal. In particular not if there's > nothing in the environment that is capable of limiting the size or > numbers of any attacks. And there's no such thing today in > Bitcoin. >=20 > This is why I sketched out the multisignature notary approach, and > why some decided to extend that approach with collateral > (NoRiskWallet) to further reduce trust in the notary. This is the > single most practical approach I know of today to achieve ACTUAL > SECURITY for unconfirmed transactions. >=20 > Don't like it? See if you can do better! >=20 > Just don't rely on zero-confirmation transactions! You just disproved your own argument. It is possible to predict risk, and therefore to price the risk. You also noted that for some Bitcoin users, the price of that risk is too high for the types of transactions in which wish to engage. In what way does that translated into a universal requirement for everybody to use multisignature notaries? 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