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From: Antoine Riard <antoine.riard@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2022 19:42:24 -0500
Message-ID: <CALZpt+HdN9G-a7U2ff7OQQ=BZTV9Fr57w7aFaTRidX0y6syPGQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: Bram Cohen <bram@chia.net>, 
 Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
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Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Improving RBF policy
Precedence: list

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> Is it still verboten to acknowledge that RBF is normal behavior and
disallowing it is the feature, and that feature is mostly there to appease
some people's delusions that zeroconf is a thing? It seems a bit overdue to
disrespect the RBF flag in the direction of always assuming it's on.

If you're thinking about the opt-in flag, not the RBF rules, please see
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2021-June/019074.ht=
ml
The latest state of the discussion is here :
https://gnusha.org/bitcoin-core-dev/2021-10-21.log
A gradual, multi-year deprecation sounds to be preferred to ease adaptation
of the affected Bitcoin applications.

Ultimately, I think it might not be the last time we have to change
high-impact tx-relay/mempool rules and a more formalized Core policy
deprecation process would be good.



Le lun. 31 janv. 2022 =C3=A0 18:15, Bram Cohen via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> a =C3=A9crit :

> Gloria Zhao wrote:
>
>>
>> This post discusses limitations of current Bitcoin Core RBF policy and
>> attempts to start a conversation about how we can improve it,
>> summarizing some ideas that have been discussed. Please reply if you
>> have any new input on issues to be solved and ideas for improvement!
>>
>
> Is it still verboten to acknowledge that RBF is normal behavior and
> disallowing it is the feature, and that feature is mostly there to appeas=
e
> some people's delusions that zeroconf is a thing? It seems a bit overdue =
to
> disrespect the RBF flag in the direction of always assuming it's on.
>
>
>> - **Incentive Compatibility**: Ensure that our RBF policy would not
>>   accept replacement transactions which would decrease fee profits
>>   of a miner. In general, if our mempool policy deviates from what is
>> economically rational, it's likely that the transactions in our
>> mempool will not match the ones in miners' mempools, making our
>> fee estimation, compact block relay, and other mempool-dependent
>> functions unreliable. Incentive-incompatible policy may also
>> encourage transaction submission through routes other than the p2p
>> network, harming censorship-resistance and privacy of Bitcoin payments.
>>
>
> There are two different common regimes which result in different
> incentivized behavior. One of them is that there's more than a block's
> backlog in the mempool in which case between two conflicting transactions
> the one with the higher fee rate should win. In the other case where ther=
e
> isn't a whole block's worth of transactions the one with higher total val=
ue
> should win. It would be nice to have consolidated logic which handles bot=
h,
> it seems the issue has to do with the slope of the supply/demand curve
> which in the first case is gentle enough to keep the one transaction from
> hitting the rate but in the second one is basically infinite.
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div><div><div>&gt; Is it still verboten to acknowled=
ge that RBF is normal behavior and
 disallowing it is the feature, and that feature is mostly there to=20
appease some people&#39;s delusions that zeroconf is a thing? It seems a bi=
t
 overdue to disrespect the RBF flag in the direction of always assuming=20
it&#39;s on.<br><br></div>If you&#39;re thinking about the opt-in flag, not=
 the RBF rules, please see <a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pip=
ermail/bitcoin-dev/2021-June/019074.html">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org=
/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2021-June/019074.html</a><br></div>The latest state =
of the discussion is here : <a href=3D"https://gnusha.org/bitcoin-core-dev/=
2021-10-21.log">https://gnusha.org/bitcoin-core-dev/2021-10-21.log</a><br><=
/div>A gradual, multi-year deprecation sounds to be preferred to ease adapt=
ation of the affected Bitcoin applications.<br><br></div> Ultimately, I thi=
nk it might not be the last time we have to change high-impact tx-relay/mem=
pool rules and a more formalized Core policy deprecation process would be g=
ood.<br><div><div><div><br><div><br></div></div></div></div></div><br><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">Le=C2=A0lun. 31=
 janv. 2022 =C3=A0=C2=A018:15, Bram Cohen via bitcoin-dev &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundati=
on.org</a>&gt; a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quot=
e" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204)=
;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Gloria Zhao wrote:</di=
v><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"mar=
gin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1=
ex"><br>
This post discusses limitations of current Bitcoin Core RBF policy and<br>
attempts to start a conversation about how we can improve it,<br>
summarizing some ideas that have been discussed. Please reply if you<br>
have any new input on issues to be solved and ideas for improvement!<br></b=
lockquote><div><br></div><div>Is it still verboten to acknowledge that RBF =
is normal behavior and disallowing it is the feature, and that feature is m=
ostly there to appease some people&#39;s delusions that zeroconf is a thing=
? It seems a bit overdue to disrespect the RBF flag in the direction of alw=
ays assuming it&#39;s on.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_=
quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,=
204);padding-left:1ex">- **Incentive Compatibility**: Ensure that our RBF p=
olicy would not<br>
=C2=A0 accept replacement transactions which would decrease fee profits<br>
=C2=A0 of a miner. In general, if our mempool policy deviates from what is<=
br>
economically rational, it&#39;s likely that the transactions in our<br>
mempool will not match the ones in miners&#39; mempools, making our<br>
fee estimation, compact block relay, and other mempool-dependent<br>
functions unreliable. Incentive-incompatible policy may also<br>
encourage transaction submission through routes other than the p2p<br>
network, harming censorship-resistance and privacy of Bitcoin payments.<br>=
</blockquote><div><br></div><div>There are two different common regimes whi=
ch result in different incentivized behavior. One of them is that there&#39=
;s more than a block&#39;s backlog in the mempool in which case between two=
 conflicting transactions the one with the higher fee rate should win. In t=
he other case where there isn&#39;t a whole block&#39;s worth of transactio=
ns the one with higher total value should win. It would be nice to have con=
solidated logic which handles both, it seems the issue has to do with the s=
lope of the supply/demand curve which in the first case is gentle enough to=
 keep the one transaction from hitting the rate but in the second one is ba=
sically infinite.</div></div></div>
_______________________________________________<br>
bitcoin-dev mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">=
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mail=
man/listinfo/bitcoin-dev</a><br>
</blockquote></div>

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