Received: from sog-mx-4.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.194] helo=mx.sourceforge.net) by sfs-ml-1.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1WNflp-0007sH-Rx for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Wed, 12 Mar 2014 09:48:17 +0000 Received-SPF: pass (sog-mx-4.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com: domain of gmail.com designates 74.125.82.44 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.44; envelope-from=mh.in.england@gmail.com; helo=mail-wg0-f44.google.com; Received: from mail-wg0-f44.google.com ([74.125.82.44]) by sog-mx-4.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) id 1WNflo-00086B-Nf for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Wed, 12 Mar 2014 09:48:17 +0000 Received: by mail-wg0-f44.google.com with SMTP id m15so8842664wgh.27 for ; Wed, 12 Mar 2014 02:48:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.194.5.5 with SMTP id o5mr285694wjo.16.1394617690638; Wed, 12 Mar 2014 02:48:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from waterford.local (84-75-251-165.dclient.hispeed.ch. [84.75.251.165]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id r3sm68317737wjw.0.2014.03.12.02.48.07 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 12 Mar 2014 02:48:08 -0700 (PDT) Sender: Mike Hearn Message-ID: <53202D51.8010008@plan99.net> Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2014 10:48:01 +0100 From: Mike Hearn User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net References: <531DFDF8.80008@gmail.com> <531E52FE.5090107@jerviss.org> <531E5454.1030601@gmail.com> <4fca6b510dd57d2f92affeb988d2ee5d.squirrel@fulvetta.riseup.net> <531FAA55.2020108@xeno-genesis.com> <531FC808.7060709@gmail.com> <9A6499BC-E546-45CC-A7EF-5182FC86052D@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <9A6499BC-E546-45CC-A7EF-5182FC86052D@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms030003040501000006060801" X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net. See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. -1.5 SPF_CHECK_PASS SPF reports sender host as permitted sender for sender-domain 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (mh.in.england[at]gmail.com) -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 1.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message 0.1 DKIM_SIGNED Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid -0.1 DKIM_VALID Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature X-Headers-End: 1WNflo-00086B-Nf Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Multisign payment protocol? X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: mike@plan99.net List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2014 09:48:18 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms030003040501000006060801 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------080504090501060201080102" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------080504090501060201080102 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Good to see so much activity! But please do remember, there's more to=20 "multisig" than just keys - you need the whole user experience to be=20 planned out and specced for fully interoperable implementations. For the "group account for an organisation" feature, you don't really=20 want to expose end users to the notion of a key. Historically this has=20 just led to confusion (and an ugly visual explosion of padlocks and=20 small metal objects :) It'd be much better for the UI to be designed in=20 terms of people, perhaps with a bit of social network integration to=20 avoid having to set up profiles, and then a "group spend" feature would=20 behind the scenes rendezvous with the others and swap signatures around, = etc. So for interop, you'd need to define all the rendezvous protocols=20 as well. > CoinVault is also using a partially signed transaction format whereby=20 > 0-length placeholders are used for missing signatures in the=20 > transaction scripts. I don't know how you are implementing this/what framework you're using,=20 but I suggest using placeholders that are the length of an actual=20 expected signature, at least when forming the transaction. This is what=20 bitcoinj will do because otherwise you could end up miscalculating the=20 fee, which is based on the final size. See TransactionSignature.dummy()=20 =20 in the API. --------------080504090501060201080102 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Good to see so much activity! But please do remember, there's more to "multisig" than just keys - you need the whole user experience to be planned out and specced for fully interoperable implementations.

For the "group account for an organisation" feature, you don't really want to expose end users to the notion of a key. Historically this has just led to confusion (and an ugly visual explosion of padlocks and small metal objects :) It'd be much better for the UI to be designed in terms of people, perhaps with a bit of social network integration to avoid having to set up profiles, and then a "group spend" feature would behind the scenes rendezvous with the others and swap signatures around, etc.  So for interop, you'd n= eed to define all the rendezvous protocols as well.
CoinVault is also using a partially signed transaction format whereby 0-length placeholders are used for missing signatures in the transaction scripts.
I don't know how you are implementing this/what framework you're using, but I suggest using placeholders that are the length of an actual expected signature, at least when forming the transaction. This is what bitcoinj will do because otherwise you could end up miscalculating the fee, which is based on the final size. See TransactionSignature.dummy() in the API.
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