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([2600:380:7012:4bff:880d:35fd:735f:1a2a]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id h20sm18162443pfv.164.2021.03.01.14.37.44 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 01 Mar 2021 14:37:44 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-44BE99E2-65FD-4433-B03D-42C53DF1DA48 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Eric Voskuil Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2021 14:37:42 -0800 Message-Id: References: In-Reply-To: To: LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH , Bitcoin Protocol Discussion X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (18D52) Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Taproot NACK X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2021 22:45:34 -0000 --Apple-Mail-44BE99E2-65FD-4433-B03D-42C53DF1DA48 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To be clear, is this a NACK because Taproot reduces =E2=80=9Ctransparency=E2= =80=9D (increases privacy) on the chain (=E2=80=9Cmaintaining consensus=E2=80= =9D is obviously an argument against any protocol change, so that=E2=80=99s a= red herring)?=20 And is it your theory that only an =E2=80=9Chonest=E2=80=9D (statute abiding= ) person should have privacy, and not against the state, and/or that mixers a= re sufficient privacy? Personally, I=E2=80=99m not moved by such an argument. What do you think is t= he value proposition of Bitcoin? e > On Mar 1, 2021, at 14:21, LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH via bitcoin-dev <= bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF > Good Afternoon, >=20 > I am going to take tough terms with much of your reply and do appreciate a= courteous practice. Having previously made public disclosure of my affiliat= ion with Jambler.io it seems sufficient to disclose my affiliation through t= he link in my email signature block. >=20 > My concern is not increased privacy it is maintaining consensus values and= the transparency of the blockchain wherein all transactions are published i= n an immutable record and that forbids the redaction of information by any o= bfuscation. A separate concern is the availability of a privacy suitable for= cash should a Bitcoin user desire and especially without disturbing the exi= sting consensus. >=20 > The use of a Bitcoin Mixer is to enable standard equivalent privacy. As yo= u may experience yourself, you do not allow people to follow you around look= ing in your purse, suppose you are dealing entirely with cash, and to see wh= ere and how much you fill it up, and where you spend. Nonetheless, for an ho= nest person, their wallet is available for government audit as are their fin= ancial affairs. This is consistent with the existing operation of consensus.= >=20 > My full email signature block is a disclosure where I have some affiliatio= n with the referenced website being that it carries at least some informatio= n that I have provided or that in some way I am associated perhaps only maki= ng use of their services. For example, I hardly make a profit from LinkedIn j= ust my information is there. Also, I have made previous public disclosure of= the affiliation. Bitcoin Mixer 2.0 is a partner mixer run by Jambler.io whe= rein I receive a service referral fee and am not in receipt of any part of t= he process transaction. The operation block diagram provided by Jambler.io i= s provided here and attached. > >=20 > [ip.bitcointalk.org.png]-Operation of Jambler.io partner mixer > https://ip.bitcointalk.org/?u=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fjambler.io%2Fimages%2Fscheme= -1.png&t=3D622&c=3DgTi7r1cfh-yynw > from this thread https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3D5267588 >=20 >=20 > The installation script provided by Jambler.io that is the basis of my ref= erral website is also publicly published, > https://github.com/jambler-io/bitcoin-mixer >=20 > The disclosure for the partner program is available from Jambler.io howeve= r and is made prominently on my referral website. While it may seem lucrativ= e at first I insist all partner profits are reportable on your personal inco= me. > https://jambler.io/become-partner.php >=20 > I am certainly better than confident that you appreciate the difference be= tween an open and transparent blockchain and the ability of the user to not r= eveal details of the content of their wallet publicly. >=20 > If further clarification is required may I suggest you pay a token and mix= some Bitcoin wherein our discussion may then have some point of reference. >=20 > KING JAMES HRMH > Great British Empire >=20 > Regards, > The Australian > LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH (& HMRH) > of Hougun Manor & Glencoe & British Empire > MR. Damian A. James Williamson > Wills >=20 > et al. >=20 > =20 > Willtech > www.willtech.com.au > www.go-overt.com > and other projects > =20 > earn.com/willtech > linkedin.com/in/damianwilliamson >=20 >=20 > m. 0487135719 > f. +61261470192 >=20 >=20 > This email does not constitute a general advice. Please disregard this ema= il if misdelivered. > From: Ariel Lorenzo-Luaces > Sent: Monday, 1 March 2021 12:07 AM > To: LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH ; Bitcoin Protoco= l Discussion > Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Taproot NACK > =20 > Hello LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH >=20 > I find a striking dichotomy between your concern of increased privacy in b= itcoin and your link to a bitcoin mixer in your signature www.go-overt.com >=20 > At first your concerns seemed genuine but after seeing your promotion of a= bitcoin mixer I'm thinking your concerns may be more profit motivated? I ca= n't tell since you failed to disclose your relationship with the mixer. >=20 > Could you please clarify your association with the bitcoin mixer and movin= g forward could you please always do proper disclosure any time you're publi= cally talking about bitcoin transaction privacy. It's only fair to do so as t= o not mislead people in an attempt to manipulate at worst and just a courteo= us practice at best. >=20 > Cheers > Ariel Lorenzo-Luaces > On Feb 28, 2021, at 4:36 AM, LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH via bitcoin-de= v wrote: > Good Evening, >=20 > Thank-you for your advice @JeremyRubin on the basis you advise, "Taproo= t does not enable monero-like privacy features", I am prepred to withdraw my= NACK notably that the existing feeatures of Bitcoin MUST be maintained, and= whereby the UTXO of a transaction is identifiable, the PayTo Address, and t= he amount all without any obfuscation. >=20 > Lightning does not really provide obfuscation, it provides a result of a s= ubset of transactions although the operation of the channel is observable to= the parties. >=20 > The reports I were reading concerning the supposed operation of Taproot pu= blished in a public media channel may have been speculation or misinformatio= n nonetheless it is prudent to conditionally reply as you see that I have. I= t is important not to allow things to slip through the cracks. As you may be= lieve may astute reviewers could make a full disclosure to this list it is n= ot to be expected. >=20 > KING JAMES HRMH > Great British Empire >=20 > Regards, > The Australian > LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH (& HMRH) > of Hougun Manor & Glencoe & British Empire > MR. Damian A. James Williamson > Wills >=20 > et al. >=20 > =20 > Willtech > www.willtech.com.au > www.go-overt.com > and other projects > =20 > earn.com/willtech > linkedin.com/in/damianwilliamson >=20 >=20 > m. 0487135719 > f. +61261470192 >=20 >=20 > This email does not constitute a general advice. Please disregard this ema= il if misdelivered. > From: Jeremy > Sent: Sunday, 28 February 2021 3:14 AM > To: LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH ; Bitcoin Protoco= l Discussion > Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Taproot NACK > =20 > I have good news for you: Taproot does not enable monero-like privacy feat= ures any moreso than already exist in Bitcoin today. At its core, taproot is= a way to make transactions with embedded smart contracts less expensive, do= ne so in a manner that may marginally improve privacy dependent on user beha= vior (but not in the monero-like way you mention). For example, it makes it p= ossible for lightning channels to look structurally similar to single key wa= llets, but it does nothing inherently to obfuscate the transaction graph as i= n monero.=20 >=20 > Such "monero-like" transaction graph obfuscation may already exist in Bitc= oin via other techniques (coinjoin, payjoin, coinswap, lightning, etc) with o= r without Taproot, so the point is further moot.=20 >=20 > Do you have a source on your reporting? >=20 > You may wish to rescind your nack.=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 > @JeremyRubin >=20 >=20 > On Sat, Feb 27, 2021 at 5:46 AM LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH via bitcoin= -dev < bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:=20 > Good Afternoon, >=20 > It has been reported that Taproot will enable some Monero like features in= cluding the ability to hide transactions. >=20 > If that is the case I offer a full NACK and let me explain. >=20 > A part of the benefit of using Bitcoin is its honesty. The full transactio= n is published on the blockchain. If that were to change so that transaction= s may be obfuscated from scrutiny then any government would have unlimited i= mpetus to ban Bitcoin, and speculation has that is the reason India has been= reported to have banned cryptocurrencies already. >=20 > I am in support of the expanded use case of Bitcoin without harming the es= tablished robust fairness and equal equity offered. The core functionality o= f Bitcoin, its values, must remain unaltered.=20 >=20 > KING JAMES HRMH > Great British Empire=20 >=20 > Regards, > The Australian > LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH (& HMRH) > of Hougun Manor & Glencoe & British Empire > MR. Damian A. James Williamson > Wills >=20 > et al. >=20 > =20 > Willtech > www.willtech.com.au > www.go-overt.com > and other projects > =20 > earn.com/willtech > linkedin.com/in/damianwilliamson >=20 >=20 > m. 0487135719 > f. +61261470192 >=20 >=20 > This email does not constitute a general advice. Please disregard this ema= il if misdelivered. > _______________________________________________=20 > bitcoin-dev mailing list=20 > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org=20 > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev=20 > =20 >=20 > bitcoin-dev mailing list > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev > > _______________________________________________ > bitcoin-dev mailing list > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev --Apple-Mail-44BE99E2-65FD-4433-B03D-42C53DF1DA48 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
To be clear, is this a NAC= K because Taproot reduces =E2=80=9Ctransparency=E2=80=9D (increases privacy)= on the chain (=E2=80=9Cmaintaining consensus=E2=80=9D is obviously an argum= ent against any protocol change, so that=E2=80=99s a red herring)? 

And is it your theory that onl= y an =E2=80=9Chonest=E2=80=9D (statute abiding) person should have privacy, a= nd not against the state, and/or that mixers are sufficient privacy?

Personally, I=E2=80=99m not moved b= y such an argument. What do you think is the value proposition of Bitcoin?

e

=
On Mar 1, 2021, at 14:21, LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAME= S HRMH via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:<= br>
=EF=BB=BF=
Good Afternoon,

I am going to take tough terms with much of your reply and do appreciate a c= ourteous practice. Having previously made public disclosure of my affiliatio= n with Jambler.io it seems sufficient to disclose my affiliation through the= link in my email signature block.

My concern is not increased privacy it is maintaining consensus values and t= he transparency of the blockchain wherein all transactions are published in a= n immutable record and that forbids the redaction of information by any obfu= scation. A separate concern is the availability of a privacy suitable for cash should a Bitcoin user de= sire and especially without disturbing the existing consensus.

The use of a Bitcoin Mixer is to enable standard equivalent privacy. As you m= ay experience yourself, you do not allow people to follow you around looking= in your purse, suppose you are dealing entirely with cash, and to see where= and how much you fill it up, and where you spend. Nonetheless, for an honest person, their wallet is ava= ilable for government audit as are their financial affairs. This is consiste= nt with the existing operation of consensus.

My full email signature block is a disclosure where I have some affiliation w= ith the referenced website being that it carries at least some information t= hat I have provided or that in some way I am associated perhaps only making u= se of their services. For example, I hardly make a profit from LinkedIn just my information is there. Also, I h= ave made previous public disclosure of the affiliation. Bitcoin Mixer 2.0 is= a partner mixer run by Jambler.io wherein I receive a service referral fee a= nd am not in receipt of any part of the process transaction. The operation block diagram provided by Ja= mbler.io is provided here and attached.
<ip.bitcointalk.org.png>

[ip.bitcointalk.org.png]-Operation of Jambler.io partner mixer

The installation script provided by Jambler.io that is the basis of my refer= ral website is also publicly published,
The disclosure for the partner program is available from Jambler.io however a= nd is made prominently on my referral website. While it may seem lucrative a= t first I insist all partner profits are reportable on your personal income.=

I am certainly better than confident that you appreciate the difference betw= een an open and transparent blockchain and the ability of the user to not re= veal details of the content of their wallet publicly.

If further clarification is required may I suggest you pay a token and mix s= ome Bitcoin wherein our discussion may then have some point of reference.

KING JAMES HRMH
Great British Empire

Regards,
The Australian
LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH (& HMRH)
of Hougun Manor & Glencoe & British Empire
MR. Damian A. James Williamson
Wills

et al.

 
Willtech
www.willtech.com.au
www.go-overt.com
and other projects
 
earn.com/willtech
linkedin.com/in/damianwilliamson


m. 0487135719
f. +61261470192


This email does not constitute a general ad= vice. Please disregard this email if misdelivered.
From: Ariel Lorenzo-Luaces &l= t;arielluaces@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, 1 March 2021 12:07 AM
To: LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH <willtech@live.com.au>; Bitc= oin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Taproot NACK
 
Hello LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH

I find a striking dichotomy between your concern of increa= sed privacy in bitcoin and your link to a bitcoin mixer in your signature www.go-overt.com

At first your concerns seemed genuine but after seeing you= r promotion of a bitcoin mixer I'm thinking your concerns may be more profit= motivated? I can't tell since you failed to disclose your relationship with= the mixer.

Could you please clarify your association with the bitcoin= mixer and moving forward could you please always do proper disclosure any t= ime you're publically talking about bitcoin transaction privacy. It's only f= air to do so as to not mislead people in an attempt to manipulate at worst and just a courteous practice a= t best.

Cheers
Ariel Lorenzo-Luaces
On Feb 28, 2021, at 4:36 AM, LORD HIS EXCELLENC= Y JAMES HRMH via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>= ; wrote:
Good Evening,

Thank-you for your advice   @JeremyRubin  on the= basis you advise, "Taproot does not enable monero-like privacy features", I= am prepred to withdraw my NACK notably that the existing feeatures of Bitco= in MUST be maintained, and whereby the UTXO of a transaction is identifiable, the PayTo Address, and the amount al= l without any obfuscation.

Lightning does not really provide obfuscation, it provides a result of a sub= set of transactions although the operation of the channel is observable to t= he parties.

The reports I were reading concerning the supposed operation of Taproot publ= ished in a public media channel may have been speculation or misinformation n= onetheless it is prudent to conditionally reply as you see that I have. It i= s important not to allow things to slip through the cracks. As you may believe may astute reviewers could m= ake a full disclosure to this list it is not to be expected.

KING JAMES HRMH
Great British Empire

Regards,
The Australian
LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH (& HMRH)
of Hougun Manor & Glencoe & British Empire
MR. Damian A. James Williamson
Wills

et al.

 
Willtech
and other projects
 
earn.com/willtech
linkedin.com/in/damianwilliamson


m. 0487135719
f. +61261470192


T= his email does not constitute a general advice. Please disregard this email i= f misdelivered.
From: Jeremy <jlrubin@mit.= edu>
Sent: Sunday, 28 February 2021 3:14 AM
To: LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH <willtech@live.com.au>; Bitc= oin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Taproot NACK
 
I have good news for you: Taproot does not enable monero-like privacy featur= es any moreso than already exist in Bitcoin today. At its core, taproot is a= way to make transactions with embedded smart contracts less expensive, done= so in a manner that may marginally improve privacy dependent on user behavior (but not in the monero-like way y= ou mention). For example, it makes it possible for lightning channels to loo= k structurally similar to single key wallets, but it does nothing inherently= to obfuscate the transaction graph as in monero.

Such "monero-like" transaction graph obfuscation may already exist in Bitcoi= n via other techniques (coinjoin, payjoin, coinswap, lightning, etc) with or= without Taproot, so the point is further moot.

Do you have a source on your reporting?

You may wish to rescind your nack.


On Sat, Feb 27, 2021 at 5:46 AM LO= RD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH via bitcoin-dev < bitcoin-dev@lists.l= inuxfoundation.org> wrote:
Good Afternoon,

It has been reported that Taproot will enable some Monero like features incl= uding the ability to hide transactions.

If that is the case I offer a full NACK and let me explain.

A part of the benefit of using Bitcoin is its honesty. The full transaction i= s published on the blockchain. If that were to change so that transactions m= ay be obfuscated from scrutiny then any government would have unlimited impe= tus to ban Bitcoin, and speculation has that is the reason India has been reported to have banned cryptocurrenc= ies already.

I am in support of the expanded use case of Bitcoin without harming the esta= blished robust fairness and equal equity offered. The core functionality of B= itcoin, its values, must remain unaltered.

KING JAMES HRMH
Great British Empire

Regards,
The Australian
LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH (& HMRH)
of Hougun Manor & Glencoe & British Empire
MR. Damian A. James Williamson
Wills

et al.

 
Willtech
and other projects
 


m. 0487135719
f. +61261470192


This email does not constitute a general= advice. Please disregard this email if misdelivered.
_______________________________________________
bitcoin-dev mailing list
b= itcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailma= n/listinfo/bitcoin-dev 
 

bitcoin-dev mailing list
bitcoin-dev@lists=
.linuxfoundation.org
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bi=
tcoin-dev
<ip.bitcointalk.org.png>
_____________________________= __________________
bitcoin-dev mailing list
= bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
https://lists.linuxfou= ndation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
= --Apple-Mail-44BE99E2-65FD-4433-B03D-42C53DF1DA48--