Return-Path: Received: from smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (smtp1.linux-foundation.org [172.17.192.35]) by mail.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C95D7D0F for ; Mon, 14 Dec 2015 12:50:56 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: from auto-whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6 Received: from d.mail.sonic.net (d.mail.sonic.net [64.142.111.50]) by smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 24BB61A9 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 2015 12:50:55 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [IPv6:::1] ([58.96.168.240]) (authenticated bits=0) by d.mail.sonic.net (8.15.1/8.15.1) with ESMTPSA id tBEConhg028584 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Mon, 14 Dec 2015 04:50:51 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.6\)) Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_6F0967A2-D236-4896-A530-43DAF069ACC4"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 X-Pgp-Agent: GPGMail 2.5.2 From: Jonathan Toomim In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2015 20:50:51 +0800 Message-Id: <478742B9-8CEA-467D-957D-3FAAB8AF5337@toom.im> References: To: Adam Back X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.6) X-Sonic-CAuth: UmFuZG9tSVaW3ZpitFR2C2TqMpSwaPzY99m8z5THQjDjiExQQj705WVq95L734iFMl54HK5x67h5cKFY7Ff1SfXF9C3wZ0oT X-Sonic-ID: C;DnRUTWGi5RG3j8gxU3XIUw== M;NB5WTmGi5RG3j8gxU3XIUw== X-Sonic-Spam-Details: 0.0/5.0 by cerberusd X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,HTML_MESSAGE, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW autolearn=ham version=3.3.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on smtp1.linux-foundation.org Cc: Bitcoin Dev Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Segregated Witness features wish list X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Development Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2015 12:50:57 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_6F0967A2-D236-4896-A530-43DAF069ACC4 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_9D354DD2-44B9-4A54-A435-0F6F741635D5" --Apple-Mail=_9D354DD2-44B9-4A54-A435-0F6F741635D5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Off-topic: If you want to decentralize hashing, the best solution is = probably to redesign p2pool to use DAGs. p2pool would be great except = for the fact that the 30 sec share times are (a) long enough to cause = significant reward variance for miners, but (b) short enough to cause = hashrate loss from frequent switching on hardware that wasn't designed = for it (e.g. Antminers, KNC) and (c) uneven rewards to different miners = due to share orphan rates. DAGs can fix all of those issues. I had a = talk with some medium-sized Chinese miners on Thursday in which I told = them about p2pool, and I got the impression that they would prefer it = over their existing pools due to the 0% fees and trustless design if the = performance issues were fixed. If anybody is interested in helping with = this work, ping me or Bob McElrath backchannel to be included in our = conversation. On Dec 14, 2015, at 8:32 PM, Adam Back wrote: > The other thing which is not protocol related, is that companies can > help themselves and help Bitcoin developers help them, by working to > improve decentralisation with better configurations, more use of > self-hosted and secured full nodes, and decentralisation of policy > control over hashrate. That might even include buying a nominal (to a > reasonably funded startup) amount of mining equipment. Or for power > users to do more of that. Some developers are doing mining. > Blockstream and some employees have a little bit of hashrate. If we > could define some metrics and best practices and measure the > improvements, that would maybe reduce miners concerns about > centralisation risk and allow a bigger block faster, alongside the > IBLT & weak block network protocol improvements. --Apple-Mail=_9D354DD2-44B9-4A54-A435-0F6F741635D5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Off-topic: If you want to decentralize hashing, the = best solution is probably to redesign p2pool to use DAGs. p2pool would = be great except for the fact that the 30 sec share times are (a) long = enough to cause significant reward variance for miners, but (b) short = enough to cause hashrate loss from frequent switching on hardware that = wasn't designed for it (e.g. Antminers, KNC) and (c) uneven rewards to = different miners due to share orphan rates. DAGs can fix all of those = issues. I had a talk with some medium-sized Chinese miners on Thursday = in which I told them about p2pool, and I got the impression that they = would prefer it over their existing pools due to the 0% fees and = trustless design if the performance issues were fixed. If anybody is = interested in helping with this work, ping me or Bob McElrath = backchannel to be included in our = conversation.


On Dec 14, 2015, at = 8:32 PM, Adam Back <adam@cypherspace.org> = wrote:

The other thing which is not protocol = related, is that companies can
help themselves and help = Bitcoin developers help them, by working to
improve decentralisation with better configurations, more = use of
self-hosted and secured full nodes, and decentralisation of = policy
control over hashrate.  That might even include buying = a nominal (to a
reasonably funded startup) amount of mining equipment. =  Or for power
users to do more of that.  Some developers are doing = mining.
Blockstream and some employees have a little bit of = hashrate.  If we
could define some metrics and best = practices and measure the
improvements, that would maybe reduce = miners concerns about
centralisation risk and allow a = bigger block faster, alongside the
IBLT & weak block network = protocol improvements.

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