Return-Path: <ZmnSCPxj@protonmail.com>
Received: from smtp2.osuosl.org (smtp2.osuosl.org [140.211.166.133])
 by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9F78C0001
 for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
 Tue, 18 May 2021 10:59:10 +0000 (UTC)
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
 by smtp2.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B00F840267
 for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
 Tue, 18 May 2021 10:59:10 +0000 (UTC)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.299
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.299 tagged_above=-999 required=5
 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1,
 DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001,
 FROM_LOCAL_NOVOWEL=0.5, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7,
 RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001,
 SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001]
 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: smtp2.osuosl.org (amavisd-new);
 dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=protonmail.com
Received: from smtp2.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1])
 by localhost (smtp2.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024)
 with ESMTP id UModZNh2_TmX
 for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
 Tue, 18 May 2021 10:59:10 +0000 (UTC)
X-Greylist: domain auto-whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.8.0
Received: from mail4.protonmail.ch (mail4.protonmail.ch [185.70.40.27])
 by smtp2.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D826140246
 for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
 Tue, 18 May 2021 10:59:09 +0000 (UTC)
Date: Tue, 18 May 2021 10:58:59 +0000
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=protonmail.com;
 s=protonmail; t=1621335547;
 bh=BMkvxSPLOCnsmQPZqeNyzxkVY4dEW6SPyKxmCwP2P3Q=;
 h=Date:To:From:Cc:Reply-To:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:From;
 b=UlW5GCN9EQnGx/U9MhuAUHHTBUUuf97K9qHtXZodY7UP82bsaw18k8ZSlhChl/O9l
 P/aWc/0c/kZMGLoya4c356pegB/coOFs2qJwYr2X56bLBcbnTrl1clr/iGRr6Q1KX+
 QESkrLmBWW7zQpNaaxM1QlyCS3z8OZT2bNZa3aqo=
To: Devrandom <c1.bitcoin@niftybox.net>
From: ZmnSCPxj <ZmnSCPxj@protonmail.com>
Reply-To: ZmnSCPxj <ZmnSCPxj@protonmail.com>
Message-ID: <WVZvU2OA12RoqS180g1B2ULVCACwaKtdF-75OWKcydI9NUxbaGefYjKAwUklzEef1bIWHghZIotDhCQuxIG5KBX14BmDCEz0wKbNJAkG-ak=@protonmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <CAB0O3SUm0JJ7rdQZNuH+6AKhC3SiXSsoBAoGpLZS7YJawWBS3Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGFmrSac+Ej1a6da8GcPK1pB_kgowtQk5roaDCVsL9t1zgwEFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALeFGL3U2yb2WVz4rwcBqO25kd0B7NcgrN4iMjDyackrTTegpw@mail.gmail.com>
 <ZFVpoVGcwTTpDDlAXLn8cCwic0l40b3DmE_UoKIv4IvmFDDX9W2F1sRHYwido1X7OK0fX1QAx5J8I5DokM4pcIKziNAgAwc6emrHulfbRE8=@protonmail.com>
 <CAB0O3SUm0JJ7rdQZNuH+6AKhC3SiXSsoBAoGpLZS7YJawWBS3Q@mail.gmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Proposal: Low Energy Bitcoin PoW
X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15
Precedence: list
List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev.lists.linuxfoundation.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/options/bitcoin-dev>, 
 <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/>
List-Post: <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
List-Help: <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev>, 
 <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 May 2021 10:59:11 -0000

Good morning devrandom,

> On Mon, May 17, 2021 at 11:47 PM ZmnSCPxj:
>
> > When considering any new proof-of-foo, it is best to consider all effec=
ts until you reach the base physics of the arrow of time, at which point yo=
u will realize it is ultimately just another proof-of-work anyway.
>
> Let's not simplify away economic considerations, such as externalities.=
=C2=A0 The whole debate about the current PoW is about negative externaliti=
es related to energy production.
>
> Depending on the details, CAPEX (R&D, real-estate, construction, producti=
on) may have less externalities, and if that's the case, we should be inter=
ested in adopting a PoW that is intensive in these types of CAPEX.

Then let us also not forget another important externality: possible optimiz=
ations of a new PoW algorithm that risk being put into some kind of exclusi=
ve patent.

I think with high probability that SHA256d as used by Bitcoin will no longe=
r have an optimization as large in effect as ASICBOOST in the future, simpl=
y because there is a huge incentive to find such optimizations and Bitcoin =
has been using SHA256d for 12 years already, and we have already found ASIC=
BOOST (and while patented, as I understand it the patent owner has promised=
 not to enforce the patent --- my understanding may be wrong).

Any alternative PoW algorithm risks an ASICBOOST-like optimization that is =
currently unknown, but which will be discovered (and possibly patented by a=
n owner that *will* enforce the patent, thus putting the entire ecosystem a=
t direct conflict with legacy government structures) once there is a good i=
ncentive (i.e. use in Bitcoin) for it.

Regards,
ZmnSCPxj