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From: Pavol Rusnak <stick@satoshilabs.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2024 11:31:35 -0500
Message-ID: <CAF90Av=HqhdOfLpY1Pz8J2N7f_A+L_LDcni2Rx59Z5rNpsLksQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: Leslie <0300dbdd1b@protonmail.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000009681db060ed65209"
Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Introducing a version field to BIP39 mnemonic
	phrases
Precedence: list

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On Sat, 13 Jan 2024 at 10:53, Leslie <0300dbdd1b@protonmail.com> wrote:

> Developments like aezeed[1] or Electrum V2[2] also demonstrate that the
> standard BIP39 entropy might not always suffice for specific applications,
> leading to alternative standards being developed.
> This reality underscores the need to consider ways to enhance the existing
> system to more effectively accommodate these evolving requirements.
>

It is a very unrealistic that any kind of seed standard with extra metadata
will cover all possible future usecases.
Therefore new standards will always keep emerging.

LND coming up with a new aezeed standard and not using Electrum v2 are good
example of this.

For LND, the documentation[1] tells you to convert the seed using a website
(not great) AND on top of that you also need to provide the derivation path
for the funds(!) because the aezeed version is not used to encode the
derivation path used.
Probably the LND folks also realized it is not feasible to regenerate the
seed (and bother user with the backup)
every time wallet starts to use the new address format.

On the other side, CLN is perfectly fine with using BIP39, making it very
easy to recover CLN funds in any BIP39 compatible wallet.

[1]
https://www.lightningnode.info/technicals/restorelndonchainfundsinelectrum

In summary, while I hold deep respect for the fundamental principles of
> BIP39, I firmly believe that exploring the potential of versioned mnemonics
> can effectively address the dynamic nature of user practices and
> application demands, all while preserving the core strengths of the BIP39
> standard.
>

From where I stand, adding metadata to seed is a fool's errand.
Every year, new people coming to Bitcoin try it and fail.

Everything said, feel free to experiment, but your experiments should be
different standard than BIP39.
I would like to keep the BIP39 base entropy layer "ossified".
Moreover, it would be best if your experiments do not interfere with BIP39
to avoid confusion.
That is, your seeds should not be of lengths 12, 15, 18, 21 or 24 words.

-- 
Best Regards / S pozdravom,

Pavol "Stick" Rusnak
Co-Founder, SatoshiLabs

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Sat, 13 Jan 2024 at 1=
0:53, Leslie &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:0300dbdd1b@protonmail.com">0300dbdd1b@pr=
otonmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-ser=
if;font-size:14px"><div>Developments like aezeed[1] or Electrum V2[2] also =
demonstrate that the standard BIP39 entropy might not always suffice for sp=
ecific applications, leading to alternative standards being developed.</div=
><div>This reality underscores the need to consider ways to enhance the exi=
sting system to more effectively accommodate these evolving requirements.</=
div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>It is a very unrealistic that an=
y kind of seed standard with extra metadata will cover all possible future =
usecases.</div><div>Therefore new standards will always keep emerging.</div=
><div><br></div><div><div>LND coming up with a new aezeed standard and not =
using Electrum v2 are good example of this.</div><div><br></div></div><div>=
For LND, the documentation[1] tells you to convert the seed using a website=
 (not great) AND on top of that you also need to provide the derivation pat=
h for the funds(!) because the aezeed version is not used to encode the der=
ivation path used.</div><div>Probably the LND folks also realized it is not=
 feasible to regenerate the seed (and bother user with the backup)</div><di=
v>every time wallet starts to use the new address format.</div><div><br></d=
iv><div><div>On the other side, CLN is perfectly fine with using BIP39, mak=
ing it very easy to recover CLN funds in any BIP39 compatible wallet.</div>=
</div><div><br></div><div>[1]=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://www.lightningnode.inf=
o/technicals/restorelndonchainfundsinelectrum">https://www.lightningnode.in=
fo/technicals/restorelndonchainfundsinelectrum</a></div><div><br></div><blo=
ckquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left=
:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"font-family:Ari=
al,sans-serif;font-size:14px"><div>In summary, while I hold deep respect fo=
r the fundamental principles of BIP39, I firmly believe that exploring the =
potential of versioned mnemonics can effectively address the dynamic nature=
 of user practices and application demands, all while preserving the core s=
trengths of the BIP39 standard.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div=
><div>From where I stand, adding metadata to seed is a fool&#39;s errand.</=
div><div>Every year, new people coming to Bitcoin try it and fail.</div></d=
iv><div><br></div><div>Everything said, feel free to experiment, but your e=
xperiments should be different standard than BIP39.</div><div>I would like =
to keep the BIP39 base entropy layer &quot;ossified&quot;.</div><div>Moreov=
er, it would be best=C2=A0if your experiments do not interfere with BIP39 t=
o avoid confusion.</div><div>That is, your seeds should not be of lengths 1=
2, 15, 18, 21 or 24 words.</div></div></div><div><br></div><span class=3D"g=
mail_signature_prefix">-- </span><br><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signat=
ure"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div></div><div>Best Regards / =
S pozdravom,</div><div><br></div><div>Pavol &quot;Stick&quot; Rusnak</div><=
div>Co-Founder, SatoshiLabs</div></div></div></div></div></div>

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