Received: from sog-mx-2.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.192] helo=mx.sourceforge.net) by sfs-ml-2.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1WOTkX-0008RH-8J for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Fri, 14 Mar 2014 15:10:17 +0000 Received-SPF: pass (sog-mx-2.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com: domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.223.177 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.223.177; envelope-from=me.thejackson4@gmail.com; helo=mail-ie0-f177.google.com; Received: from mail-ie0-f177.google.com ([209.85.223.177]) by sog-mx-2.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) id 1WOTkV-0000xU-E3 for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Fri, 14 Mar 2014 15:10:17 +0000 Received: by mail-ie0-f177.google.com with SMTP id rl12so2550793iec.8 for ; Fri, 14 Mar 2014 08:10:10 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.43.171.66 with SMTP id nt2mr2417164icc.60.1394809810097; Fri, 14 Mar 2014 08:10:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.50.185.228 with HTTP; Fri, 14 Mar 2014 08:10:09 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <362072F0-1EA8-4474-AE26-4691C852A22C@bitsofproof.com> References: <52852C2D.9020103@gmail.com> <52853D8A.6010501@monetize.io> <362072F0-1EA8-4474-AE26-4691C852A22C@bitsofproof.com> Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2014 11:10:09 -0400 Message-ID: From: Tyler To: Tamas Blummer , bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c2d606429a8204f4927794 X-Spam-Score: -0.3 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net. See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. -1.5 SPF_CHECK_PASS SPF reports sender host as permitted sender for sender-domain 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (me.thejackson4[at]gmail.com) -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 0.2 FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT Envelope-from freemail username ends in digit (me.thejackson4[at]gmail.com) 1.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message -0.1 DKIM_VALID_AU Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from author's domain 0.1 DKIM_SIGNED Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid -0.1 DKIM_VALID Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature X-Headers-End: 1WOTkV-0000xU-E3 Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2014 15:10:17 -0000 --001a11c2d606429a8204f4927794 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >You give them a hard to interpret thing like mBTC and then wonder why >they rather look at local currency. Because the choices you gave them are bad. I don't think this is particularly true. The options people are given are all good in this case and all have their merits. The reason people are converting to fiat using the exchange rates is because right now the exchanges define its value. People have no intuitive idea that a loaf of bread cost X BTC. This isn't going to change anytime soon. In my opinion it doesn't really matter what denomination you use. If we switched to micro we would have 3 extra digits we would be working with on a daily basis which have very little significance. But thats just a western point of view and people could adapt. The real problems are that millibitcoin and microbitcoin are hard to say loud and the both start with 'm' not too many people have a mu key on their keyboard. Even Bitcoin is not nice to say. it has two very hard sounds together in the middle of the word. It would be far easier if we had a system like one ham is 1000 bits, one bacon is 1000 hams. Clearly a ridiculous example but try saying and you'll realize how much easier it is to describe things not that they are clearly differentiable words that are easy to say. I like bits as the lowest one. But its not something you can decide. The common names will have to develop naturally and in all likelihood will differ between regions (I know I know we must keep it standardized but what might be easy to say in North America probably isn't as easy elsewhere.) So give people the options (Let them transact on their own terms). I would say restrict it to BTC milli and micro in the settings that will help nudge people towards even different regions simply having different names for the same quantity as opposed to some place having 10 hams as a pixie. On 14 March 2014 10:14, Tamas Blummer wrote: > You give them a hard to interpret thing like mBTC and then wonder why > they rather look at local currency. Because the choices you gave them are > bad. > > I think Bitcoin would have a better chance to be percieved as a currency > of its own if it had prices and fractions like currencies do. > > 3.558 mBTC or 0.003578 BTC will never be as accepted as 3558 bits would b= e. > > > Tamas Blummer > Bits of Proof > > On 14.03.2014, at 15:05, Andreas Schildbach wrote= : > > > btw. None of Bitcoin Wallet's users complained about confusion because > > of the mBTC switch. In contrast, I get many mails and questions if > > exchange rates happen to differ by >10%. > > > > I suspect nobody looks at the Bitcoin price. It's the amount in local > > currency that matters to the users. > > > > > > On 03/13/2014 02:40 PM, Andreas Schildbach wrote: > >> Indeed. And users were crying for mBTC. Nobody was asking for =C2=B5BT= C. > >> > >> I must admit I was not aware if this thread. I just watched other > >> wallets and at some point decided its time to switch to mBTC. > >> > >> > >> On 03/13/2014 02:31 PM, Mike Hearn wrote: > >>> The standard has become mBTC and that's what was adopted. It's too la= te > >>> to try and sway this on a mailing list thread now. > >>> > >>> > >>> On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 2:29 PM, Gary Rowe >>> > wrote: > >>> > >>> The MultiBit HD view is that this is a locale-sensitive presentati= on > >>> issue. As a result we offer a simple configuration panel giving > >>> pretty much every possible combination: icon, m+icon, =CE=BC+icon= , BTC, > >>> mBTC, =CE=BCBTC, XBT, mXBT, =CE=BCXBT, sat along with settings f= or > >>> leading/trailing symbol, commas, spaces and points. This allows > >>> anyone to customise to meet their own needs beyond the offered > default. > >>> > >>> We apply the NIST guidelines for representation of SI unit symbols > >>> (i.e no conversion to native language, no RTL giving icon+m etc). > >>> > >>> Right now MultiBit HD is configured to use m+icon taken from the > >>> Font Awesome icon set. However reading earlier posts it seems > >>> that =CE=BC+icon is more sensible. > >>> > >>> Let us know what you'd like. > >>> > >>> Links: > >>> m+icon screenshot: http://imgur.com/a/WCDoG > >>> Font Awesome icon: > http://fortawesome.github.io/Font-Awesome/icon/btc/ > >>> NIST SI guidelines: http://physics.nist.gov/Pubs/SP811/sec07.html > >>> > >>> > >>> On 13 March 2014 12:56, Jeff Garzik >>> > wrote: > >>> > >>> Resurrecting this topic. Bitcoin Wallet moved to mBTC several > weeks > >>> ago, which was disappointing -- it sounded like the consensus > was > >>> uBTC, and moving to uBTC later --which will happen-- may resul= t > in > >>> additional user confusion, thanks to yet another decimal place > >>> transition. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On Sun, Nov 17, 2013 at 9:28 PM, Wendell >>> > wrote: > >>>> We're with uBTC too. Been waiting for the signal to do this, > >>> let's do it right after the fee system is improved. > >>>> > >>>> -wendell > >>>> > >>>> grabhive.com | twitter.com/hivewallet > >>> | gpg: 6C0C9411 > >>>> > >>>> On Nov 15, 2013, at 6:03 AM, Jeff Garzik wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> Go straight to uBTC. Humans and existing computer systems > >>> handle numbers to > >>>>> the left of the decimals just fine (HK Dollars, Yen). The > >>> opposite is > >>>>> untrue (QuickBooks really does not like 3+ decimal places). > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Jeff Garzik > >>> Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist > >>> BitPay, Inc. https://bitpay.com/ > >>> > >>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------ > >>> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book > >>> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databas= es > >>> and their > >>> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, > >>> this first edition is now available. Download your free book > today! > >>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Bitcoin-development mailing list > >>> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > >>> > >>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------ > >>> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book > >>> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases a= nd > >>> their > >>> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, > >>> this first edition is now available. Download your free book today= ! > >>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Bitcoin-development mailing list > >>> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > >>> > >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- > >>> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book > >>> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and > their > >>> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, > >>> this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! > >>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Bitcoin-development mailing list > >>> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- > >> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book > >> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and > their > >> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, > >> this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! > >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Bitcoin-development mailing list > >> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development > >> > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- > > Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book > > "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and > their > > applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, > > this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! > > http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech > > _______________________________________________ > > Bitcoin-development mailing list > > Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- > Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book > "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and thei= r > applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, > this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! > http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech > _______________________________________________ > Bitcoin-development mailing list > Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development > > --=20 Tyler Jackson --001a11c2d606429a8204f4927794 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>You give them a hard to interpret thing like mBTC and = then wonder why
>they rather look at local currency. Because the choi= ces you gave them are bad.

I don't th= ink this is particularly true. The options people are given are all good in= this case and all have their merits. The reason people are converting to f= iat using the exchange rates is because right now the exchanges define its = value. People have no intuitive idea that a loaf of bread cost X BTC. This = isn't going to change anytime soon.

In my opini= on it doesn't really matter what denomination you use. =C2=A0If we swit= ched to micro we would have 3 extra digits we would be working with on a da= ily basis which have very little significance. But thats just a western poi= nt of view and people could adapt.=C2=A0

The real pr= oblems are that millibitcoin and microbitcoin are hard to say loud and the = both start with 'm' not too many people have a mu key on their keyb= oard. Even Bitcoin is not nice to say. it has two very hard sounds together= in the middle of the word.

It would be= far easier if we had a system like one ham is 1000 bits, one bacon is 1000= hams.

Clearly a ridiculous example but try saying and you'll realize how muc= h easier it is to describe things not that they are clearly differentiable = words that are easy to say.=C2=A0

I like bits= as the lowest one. But its not something you can decide. The common names = will have to develop naturally and in all likelihood will differ between re= gions (I know I know we must keep it standardized but what might be easy to= say in North America probably isn't as easy elsewhere.)=C2=A0

So give peo= ple the options (Let them transact on their own terms). I would say restric= t it to BTC milli and micro in the settings that will help nudge people tow= ards even different regions simply having different names for the same quan= tity as opposed to some place having 10 hams as a pixie.=C2=A0
=C2=A0

<= div class=3D"gmail_quote"> On 14 March 2014 10:14, Tamas Blummer <tamas@bitsofproof.com> wrote:
You give them a hard to interpret thing like mBTC and then wonder why
they rather look at local currency. Because the choices you gave them are b= ad.

I think Bitcoin would have a better chance to be percieved as a currency of its own if it had prices and fractions like currencies do.

3.558 mBTC or 0.003578 BTC will never be as accepted as 3558 bits would be.=


Tamas Blummer
Bits of Proof

On 14.03.2014, at 15:05, Andreas Schildbach <andreas@schildbach.de> wrote:

> btw. None of Bitcoin Wallet's users complained about confusion bec= ause
> of the mBTC switch. In contrast, I get many mails and questions if
> exchange rates happen to differ by >10%.
>
> I suspect nobody looks at the Bitcoin price. It's the amount in lo= cal
> currency that matters to the users.
>
>
> On 03/13/2014 02:40 PM, Andreas Schildbach wrote:
>> Indeed. And users were crying for mBTC. Nobody was asking for =C2= =B5BTC.
>>
>> I must admit I was not aware if this thread. I just watched other<= br> >> wallets and at some point decided its time to switch to mBTC.
>>
>>
>> On 03/13/2014 02:31 PM, Mike Hearn wrote:
>>> The standard has become mBTC and that's what was adopted. = It's too late
>>> to try and sway this on a mailing list thread now.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 2:29 PM, Gary Rowe <g.rowe@froot.co.uk
>>> <mailto:g.rowe@froot.co.uk>> wrote:
>>>
>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0The MultiBit HD view is that this is a locale-sen= sitive presentation
>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0issue. As a result we offer a simple configuratio= n panel giving
>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0pretty much every possible combination: icon, m+i= con, =C2=A0=CE=BC+icon, BTC,
>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0mBTC, =C2=A0=CE=BCBTC, XBT, mXBT, =C2=A0=CE=BCXBT= , sat along with settings for
>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0leading/trailing symbol, commas, spaces and point= s. This allows
>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0anyone to customise to meet their own needs beyon= d the offered default.
>>>
>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0We apply the NIST guidelines for representation o= f SI unit symbols
>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0(i.e no conversion to native language, no RTL giv= ing icon+m etc).
>>>
>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0Right now MultiBit HD is configured to use m+icon= taken from the
>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0Font Awesome icon set. However reading earlier po= sts it seems
>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0that =CE=BC+icon is more sensible.
>>>
>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0Let us know what you'd like.
>>>
>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0Links:
>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0m+icon screenshot: http://imgur.com/a/WCDoG
>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0Font Awesome icon: http://fortawesome.gith= ub.io/Font-Awesome/icon/btc/
>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0NIST SI guidelines: http://physics.nist.gov/Pubs= /SP811/sec07.html
>>>
>>>
>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0On 13 March 2014 12:56, Jeff Garzik <jgarzik@bitpay.com
>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:jgarzik@bitpay.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Resurrecting this topic. =C2=A0Bitc= oin Wallet moved to mBTC several weeks
>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0ago, which was disappointing -- it = sounded like the consensus was
>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0uBTC, and moving to uBTC later --wh= ich will happen-- may result in
>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0additional user confusion, thanks t= o yet another decimal place
>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0transition.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On Sun, Nov 17, 2013 at 9:28 PM, We= ndell <w@grabhive.co= m
>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:w@grabhive.com>> wrote:
>>>> We're with uBTC too. Been waiting for the signal to do= this,
>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0let's do it right after the fee= system is improved.
>>>>
>>>> -wendell
>>>>
>>>> grabhive= .com <http://grabh= ive.com> | twitter.com/hivewallet
>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<http://twitter.com/hivewallet> | gpg: 6= C0C9411
>>>>
>>>> On Nov 15, 2013, at 6:03 AM, Jeff Garzik wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Go straight to uBTC. Humans and existing computer syst= ems
>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0handle numbers to
>>>>> the left of the decimals just fine (HK Dollars, Yen). = The
>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0opposite is
>>>>> untrue (QuickBooks really does not like 3+ decimal pla= ces).
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--
>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Jeff Garzik
>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Bitcoin core developer and open sou= rce evangelist
>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0BitPay, Inc. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://bitpay.com/
>>>
>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-----------------------------------= -------------------------------------------
>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Learn Graph Databases - Download FR= EE O'Reilly Book
>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0"Graph Databases" is the = definitive new guide to graph databases
>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and their
>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0applications. Written by three accl= aimed leaders in the field,
>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0this first edition is now available= . Download your free book today!
>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech
>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0___________________________________= ____________
>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Bitcoin-development mailing list >>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Bitcoin-development@lists.sourc= eforge.net
>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:Bitcoin-development@= lists.sourceforge.net>
>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://lists.s= ourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0-------------------------------------------------= -----------------------------
>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reill= y Book
>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0"Graph Databases" is the definitive new= guide to graph databases and
>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0their
>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders = in the field,
>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0this first edition is now available. Download you= r free book today!
>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech
>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0_______________________________________________ >>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0Bitcoin-development mailing list
>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net=
>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourcefo= rge.net>
>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://lists.sourceforge.net= /lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------= ----------------
>>> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
>>> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to gra= ph databases and their
>>> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,=
>>> this first edition is now available. Download your free book t= oday!
>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>>> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listin= fo/bitcoin-development
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------= ------------
>> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
>> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph d= atabases and their
>> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
>> this first edition is now available. Download your free book today= !
>> ht= tp://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/b= itcoin-development
>>
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------= --------
> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph datab= ases and their
> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
> this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! > http:/= /p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitco= in-development


-----------------------------------------------------------= -------------------
Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
"Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases = and their
applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
this first edition is now available. Download your free book today!
http://p.sf= .net/sfu/13534_NeoTech
_____________________________________________= __
Bitcoin-development mailing list
Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-de= velopment




--
Tyler Ja= ckson
--001a11c2d606429a8204f4927794--