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From: Michael Gronager <gronager@ceptacle.com>
In-Reply-To: <CAH2=CKx-SWk17v9uGFAmk=-sbFrxeuvAvCFmECSvM7FEH-C0kw@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2013 21:36:05 +0100
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To: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Blocking uneconomical UTXO creation
Precedence: list

The point with UTXO is in the long run to be able to switch from a p2p =
network where everyone stores, validates and verifies everything to a =
DHT where the load of storing, validating and verifying can be shared.=20=


If we succeed with that then I don't see a problem in a growing set of =
UTXO, may that be due to abuse/misuse or just massive use. A properly =
designed DHT should be able to scale to this.

However, that being said, if you worry about the size of the UTXO set =
you should change the current coin choosing algorithm to simply get rid =
of dust.=20

The current algorithm (ApproximateBestSubset) tend to accumulate dust as =
dust tend to be on an other scale than a real transactions and hence it =
is never included.

Regarding the demurrage/escheatment road, I agree that this is for =
another project. However, if users/developers like this idea, they can =
just implement a coin choosing algorithm donating dust as miner fee and =
use it on their satoshi-dice polluted wallet ;)

/M
 =20
On 11/03/2013, at 21:08, Rune Kj=E6r Svendsen <runesvend@gmail.com> =
wrote:

> On Mon, Mar 11, 2013 at 12:01 PM, Jorge Tim=F3n <jtimonmv@gmail.com> =
wrote:
> On 3/10/13, Peter Todd <pete@petertodd.org> wrote:
> > It's also been suggested multiple times to make transaction outputs =
with
> > a value less than the transaction fee non-standard, either with a =
fixed
> > constant or by some sort of measurement.
>=20
> As said on the bitcointalk thread, I think this is the wrong approach.
> This way you effectively disable legitimate use cases for payments
> that "are worth" less than the fees like smart property/colored coins.
> While the transactions pay fees, they should not be considered spam
> regardless of how little the quantities being moved are.
>=20
> Then your only concern are unspent outputs and comparing fees with
> values doesn't help in any way.
>=20
> =20
> Just activate a non-proportional
> demurrage (well, I won't complain if you just turn bitcoin into
> freicoin, just think that non-proportional would be more acceptable by
> most bitcoiners) that incentives old transactions to be moved and
> destroys unspent transactions with small amounts that don't move to
> another address periodically. This has been proposed many times before
> too, and I think it makes a lot more sense.
>=20
> =46rom an economic point of view this *does* make sense, in my =
opinion. Storing an unspent transaction in the block chain costs money =
because we can't prune it. However, it would completely destroy =
confidence in Bitcoin, as far as I can see. It makes sense economically, =
but it  isn't feasible if we want to maintain people's confidence in =
Bitcoin.
>=20
> I like Jeff's proposal of letting an alt-coin implement this. If it =
gets to the point where Bitcoin can't function without this =
functionality, it'll be a lot easier to make the transition, instead of =
now, when it's not really needed, and the trust in Bitcoin really isn't =
that great.
>=20
> /Rune
>=20
> =20
>=20
> =
--------------------------------------------------------------------------=
----
> Symantec Endpoint Protection 12 positioned as A LEADER in The =
Forrester
> Wave(TM): Endpoint Security, Q1 2013 and "remains a good choice" in =
the
> endpoint security space. For insight on selecting the right partner to
> tackle endpoint security challenges, access the full report.
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/symantec-dev2dev
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>=20
> =
--------------------------------------------------------------------------=
----
> Symantec Endpoint Protection 12 positioned as A LEADER in The =
Forrester =20
> Wave(TM): Endpoint Security, Q1 2013 and "remains a good choice" in =
the =20
> endpoint security space. For insight on selecting the right partner to=20=

> tackle endpoint security challenges, access the full report.=20
> =
http://p.sf.net/sfu/symantec-dev2dev______________________________________=
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