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From: Pavol Rusnak <stick@satoshilabs.com>
Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2022 19:52:18 +0200
Message-ID: <CAF90AvmOSa+V7+z16MXyJRCVh_iEceFp_CkbC_4jWixi4W5BbQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>,
 Bram Cohen <bram@chia.net>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d3f92c05e33abfbb"
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] No Order Mnemonic
Precedence: list

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There is. Just encode the index of permutation used to scramble the
otherwise sorted list. For 12 words you need to store 12! = ~32 bits so 3
words should be enough.

Repetitions make this more difficult, though.

On Thu 7. 7. 2022 at 19:41, Bram Cohen via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:

> On Thu, Jul 7, 2022 at 7:43 AM Anton Shevchenko via bitcoin-dev <
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>
>> I made a python implementation for a different mnemonic encoding. The
>> encoding requires user to remember words but not the order of those words.
>> The code is open (MIT license) at https://github.com/sancoder/noomnem
>
>
> Thanks Anton. There's an interesting mathematical question of whether it's
> possible to make a code like this which always uses the BIP-39 words for
> the same key as part of its encoding, basically adding a few words as error
> correction in case the order is lost or confused. If the BIP-39 contains a
> duplicate you can add an extra word.
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>
-- 
Best Regards / S pozdravom,

Pavol "stick" Rusnak
Co-Founder, SatoshiLabs

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<div dir=3D"auto">There is. Just encode the index of permutation used to sc=
ramble the otherwise sorted list. For 12 words you need to store 12! =3D ~3=
2 bits so 3 words should be enough.=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>=
<div dir=3D"auto">Repetitions make this more difficult, though.=C2=A0</div>=
<div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">O=
n Thu 7. 7. 2022 at 19:41, Bram Cohen via bitcoin-dev &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.o=
rg</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margi=
n:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-l=
eft:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"lt=
r">On Thu, Jul 7, 2022 at 7:43 AM Anton Shevchenko via bitcoin-dev &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">bitc=
oin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><div class=3D"gma=
il_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8=
ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-le=
ft-color:rgb(204,204,204)">I made a python implementation for a different m=
nemonic encoding. The encoding requires user to remember words but not the =
order of those words.<br>
The code is open (MIT license) at <a href=3D"https://github.com/sancoder/no=
omnem" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/sancoder/noo=
mnem</a></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Thanks Anton. There&#39;s an inter=
esting mathematical question of whether it&#39;s possible to make a code li=
ke this which always uses the BIP-39 words for the same key as part of its =
encoding, basically adding a few words as error correction in case the orde=
r is lost or confused. If the BIP-39 contains a duplicate you can add an ex=
tra word.</div></div></div>
_______________________________________________<br>
bitcoin-dev mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">=
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mail=
man/listinfo/bitcoin-dev</a><br>
</blockquote></div></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature" =
data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><=
div></div><div>Best Regards / S pozdravom,</div><div><br></div><div>Pavol &=
quot;stick&quot; Rusnak</div><div>Co-Founder, SatoshiLabs</div></div></div>=
</div></div>

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