Return-Path: Received: from smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (smtp1.linux-foundation.org [172.17.192.35]) by mail.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 35832B55 for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 20:53:43 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6 Received: from mail-vk0-f48.google.com (mail-vk0-f48.google.com [209.85.213.48]) by smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 69A05124 for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 20:53:42 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-vk0-f48.google.com with SMTP id r69so32649051vke.2 for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 13:53:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=lFRzrbxntm3n7znRUlM07yn/IMsB2k0BWF9SRn3EqXs=; b=IPohUr/1GmTAojOB1DET8+P94XOlGaj651Qw96qVPdeOHkjx9SvQ1nVrvj0owcez7E n4glGeHeU3r2Zk5Na5qdG+GAPTJNqKz1NGroXzTK4C0NqzhN3JQg9e18etFgOe3GIiYW hiTm8tx+nFcn+diW5HEHkIFfGC9lKJXAhE8NXsomDpbFrIsjM0fzwifRnG5AbeGBC4Pd EShAeiDtnLW1NmiixfocxfaQeckmtCXYIt7PjCwkWA6g66qqD0EHl02ZE72I02ERLLv9 fhet3rGlKDEY+QAEsC9b9CxA7RJjpyyzcu3mNdmi83Bd1IE5rSiZ365xA0yjgX1hAgU3 6qJQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=lFRzrbxntm3n7znRUlM07yn/IMsB2k0BWF9SRn3EqXs=; b=V151HpMrtKcI0mAd9wkh7ppBQ/yAzOxjGCWmItUYz+GJePzpJcuA2nCJKAmGckJ+dT VX2tjoNSMg99jZqDeloMU84cs3//CdTfBEF53xjD8Q9G3mJCj0J+HmPUPFjZlBkE8vpN xwN+hKfcgBcv3xTSmhQLumUv3vSNa/p2sKH7bu+fuT/zwr6t2qr3/VbBDHr3uzOmeZA6 8p1I3mtrhRlut14pxysCWACRM63PDIPG+g0KAUdGq+c+jakS6Ut0LE+/RMxjHuReuhbn Rve/G3mAXTqc3F9/mdxzeWclgX/M3ohkferTb3sQNMd7tYJWguwxorBPEOvoW8aD6he9 OSpQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H0PvhnueVzWrlbp5UE4bRFOjWus2S49qHMn31jnewrY+sdXaRjsXwCQBTTGY+5NFjaaht03H2xQ0Oo1TQ== X-Received: by 10.31.114.79 with SMTP id n76mr1191352vkc.30.1490820821504; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 13:53:41 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.31.157.143 with HTTP; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 13:53:40 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Jared Lee Richardson Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 13:53:40 -0700 Message-ID: To: David Vorick , Bitcoin Protocol Discussion Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c1497187d55d7054be4c507 X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.2 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID,DKIM_VALID_AU,FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT,FREEMAIL_FROM, HTML_MESSAGE, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE, RCVD_IN_SORBS_SPAM autolearn=no version=3.3.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on smtp1.linux-foundation.org X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 21:52:22 +0000 Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Hard fork proposal from last week's meeting X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 20:53:43 -0000 --94eb2c1497187d55d7054be4c507 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > Pruned nodes are not the default configuration, if it was the default configuration then I think you would see far more users running a pruned node. Default configurations aren't a big enough deal to factor into the critical discussion of node costs versus transaction fee cost. Default configurations can be changed, and if nodes are negatively affected by a default configuration, there will be an abundance of information about how to correct that effect by turning on pruning. Bitcoin can't design with the assumption that people can't google - If we wanted to cater to that population group right now, we'd need 100x the blocksize at least. > But that would also substantially increase the burden on archive nodes. This is already a big problem from the measurements I've been looking at. There are alternatives that need to be considered there as well. If we limit ourselves to not changing the syncing process for most users, the blocksize limit debate changes drastically. Hard drive costs, CPU costs, propagation times... none of those things matter because the cost of sync bandwidth is so incredibly high even now ($130ish per month, see other email). Even if we didn't increase the blocksize any more than segwit, we're already seeing sync costs being shifted onto fewer nodes - I.e., Luke Jr's scan finding ~50k nodes online but only 7k of those show up on sites like bitnodes.21.co. Segwit will shift it further until the few nodes providing sync limit speeds and/or max out on connections, providing no fully-sync'd nodes for a new node to connect to. Then wallet providers / node software will offer a solution - A bundled utxo checkpoint that removes the need to sync. This slightly increases centralization, and increases centralization more if core were to adopt the same approach. The advantage would be tremendous for such a simple solution - Node costs would drop by a full order of magnitude for full nodes even today, more when archival nodes are more restricted, history is bigger, and segwit blocksizes are in effect, and then blocksizes could be safely increased by nearly the same order of magnitude, increasing the utility of bitcoin and the number of people that can effectively use it. Another, much more complicated option is for the node sync process to function like a tor network. A very small number of seed nodes could send data on to only other nodes with the highest bandwidth available(and good retention policy, i.e. not tightly pruning as they sync), who then spread it out further and so on. That's complicated though, because as far as I know the syncing process today has no ability to exchange a selfish syncing node for a high performing syncing node. I'm not even sure - will a syncing node opt to sync from a different node that, itself, isn't fully sync'd but is farther ahead? At any rate, syncing bandwidth usage is a critical problem for future growth and is solvable. The upsides of fixing it are huge, though. On Wed, Mar 29, 2017 at 9:25 AM, David Vorick via bitcoin-dev < bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: > > On Mar 29, 2017 12:20 PM, "Andrew Johnson" > wrote: > > What's stopping these users from running a pruned node? Not every node > needs to store a complete copy of the blockchain. > > > Pruned nodes are not the default configuration, if it was the default > configuration then I think you would see far more users running a pruned > node. > > But that would also substantially increase the burden on archive nodes. > > > Further discussion about disk space requirements should be taken to > another thread. > > > > _______________________________________________ > bitcoin-dev mailing list > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev > > --94eb2c1497187d55d7054be4c507 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>=C2=A0Pruned nodes are not the default configuration, if it was the defau= lt configuration then I think you would see far more users running a pruned= node.

Default configurations aren't a big enough deal to factor into the cri= tical discussion of node costs versus transaction fee cost.=C2=A0 Default c= onfigurations can be changed, and if nodes are negatively affected by a def= ault configuration, there will be an abundance of information about how to = correct that effect by turning on pruning.=C2=A0 Bitcoin can't design w= ith the assumption that people can't google - If we wanted to cater to = that population group right now, we'd need 100x the blocksize at least.=
<= br>
> But that would also substantially increase the burden on archive nod= es.

This is already a big problem from the measurements= I've been looking at.=C2=A0 There are alternatives that need to be con= sidered there as well.=C2=A0 If we limit ourselves to not changing the sync= ing process for most users, the blocksize limit debate changes drastically.= =C2=A0 Hard drive costs, CPU costs, propagation times... none of those thin= gs matter because the cost of sync bandwidth is so incredibly high even now= ($130ish per month, see other email).=C2=A0 Even if we didn't increase= the blocksize any more than segwit, we're already seeing sync costs be= ing shifted onto fewer nodes - I.e., Luke Jr's scan finding ~50k nodes = online but only 7k of those show up on sites like bitnodes.21.co.=C2=A0 Segwit will shift it further until the f= ew nodes providing sync limit speeds and/or max out on connections, providi= ng no fully-sync'd nodes for a new node to connect to. Then wallet prov= iders / node software will offer a solution - A bundled utxo checkpoint tha= t removes the need to sync.=C2=A0 This slightly increases centralization, a= nd increases centralization more if core were to adopt the same approach.

The advantage would be tremendous for such a simple= solution - Node costs would drop by a full order of magnitude for full nod= es even today, more when archival nodes are more restricted, history is big= ger, and segwit blocksizes are in effect, and then blocksizes could be safe= ly increased by nearly the same order of magnitude, increasing the utility = of bitcoin and the number of people that can effectively use it.

Another, much more complicated option is for the node sync process = to function like a tor network.=C2=A0 A very small number of seed nodes cou= ld send data on to only other nodes with the highest bandwidth available(an= d good retention policy, i.e. not tightly pruning as they sync), who then s= pread it out further and so on.=C2=A0 That's complicated though, becaus= e as far as I know the syncing process today has no ability to exchange a s= elfish syncing node for a high performing syncing node.=C2=A0 I'm not e= ven sure - will a syncing node opt to sync from a different node that, itse= lf, isn't fully sync'd but is farther ahead?

At any rate, syncing bandwidth usage is a critical problem for future gr= owth and is solvable.=C2=A0 The upsides of fixing it are huge, though.

On Wed, Ma= r 29, 2017 at 9:25 AM, David Vorick via bitcoin-dev <<= a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">b= itcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:

On Mar 29,= 2017 12:20 PM, "Andrew Johnson" <andrew.johnson83@gmail.com> wrot= e:
What's stopping these users from running a pruned node?=C2=A0 Not ev= ery node needs to store a complete copy of the blockchain.=C2=A0

Pruned nodes are not t= he default configuration, if it was the default configuration then I think = you would see far more users running a pruned node.

But that would also substantially increase the burden o= n archive nodes.


Further discussion about disk space requirements should b= e taken to another thread.


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bitcoin-dev mailing list
bitcoin-dev@lists.= linuxfoundation.org
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org= /mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev


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