On Dec 3, 2013, at 2:20 PM, Mike Hearn = <mike@plan99.net> = wrote:

On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 12:57 PM, Taylor Gerring = <taylor.gerring@gmail.com> wrote:

Why should there be two classes of = transactions? Where does paying a local business at a farmer=92s stand = lie in that realm? Transactions should work the same regardless of who = is on the receiving end.

Lots and lots of people are = psychologically trained to expect that they pay the sticker price for = things. Yes in recent times some places have started to show additional = fees for using credit cards, but only as a way to try and push people = onto cheaper forms of payment, not because customers love surcharges. = It's for that reason that many merchants don't do this, even when they = could - I pay for things with Maestro Debit all the time and I don't = think I've ever seen a surcharge. That system obviously has costs, but = they're included.

This is just a basic cultural thing - when I buy = something from a shop, the social expectation is that the seller should = be grateful for receiving my money. "The customer is always right". When = I send money to a friend, the social expectation is different. If my = friend said, hey Mike, could you send me that 10 bucks you owe me from = last weekend and what he receives is less than 10 bucks, he would = probably feel annoyed - if I owe him 10 bucks then I owe him 10 bucks = and it's my job the cover the fees. That's why PayPal makes sender pay = fees in that case.

Maybe we need new terminology for this. Interior = fees for included in the price/receiver pays and exterior = fees for excluded from the price/sender = pays?

Fees are only confusing because existing = clients do a terrible job of presenting the information to the user. In = Hive Wallet, I=92m of the opinion that we should inform the user in an = intuitive way to let them make an informed decision.

Have you thought through = the UI for that in detail? How exactly are you going to explain the fee = structure? Let the user pick the number of blocks they need to wait for? = What's a block? Why should I care? Why shouldn't I just set the slider = all the way to the other end and pay no fees at all? Is the merchant = going to refuse to take my payment? Gavin just said that's not possible = with Bitcoin-Qt. I'm thinking for bitcoinj I might go in a slightly = different direction and not broadcast payments submitted via the payment = protocol (and definitely not have one wire tx pay multiple payment = requests simultaneously, at least not for consumer wallets).