Return-Path: Received: from smtp4.osuosl.org (smtp4.osuosl.org [IPv6:2605:bc80:3010::137]) by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 878DBC002A for ; Thu, 20 Apr 2023 23:14:23 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp4.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FE66418A2 for ; Thu, 20 Apr 2023 23:14:23 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 smtp4.osuosl.org 5FE66418A2 X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.344 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.344 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FAKE_REPLY_B=2.244, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from smtp4.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp4.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MDNZDfs7nLb2 for ; Thu, 20 Apr 2023 23:14:21 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: delayed 00:08:00 by SQLgrey-1.8.0 DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 smtp4.osuosl.org 8D45B415D5 Received: from mail.nuclearfallout.net (mail.nuclearfallout.net [192.223.25.228]) by smtp4.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8D45B415D5 for ; Thu, 20 Apr 2023 23:14:21 +0000 (UTC) From: Kree Love Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_B82A5398-E6C4-4F31-B18B-30E72C9C2B4F"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.7\)) Message-Id: <1B1886A2-B2F5-44EB-8916-2F77723E2B10@kreelove.com> References: <88B84BDC-03E2-4EE4-8734-98761721FB96@kreelove.com> To: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2023 18:06:17 -0500 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.7) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 21 Apr 2023 01:43:40 +0000 Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Bitcoin fungibility and inscribed sats X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2023 23:14:23 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_B82A5398-E6C4-4F31-B18B-30E72C9C2B4F Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_B238323C-E4C0-4517-AC34-FCB0016BEAF6" --Apple-Mail=_B238323C-E4C0-4517-AC34-FCB0016BEAF6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 I have been meaning to respond to this thread earlier, but better late = than never. "want bitcoin to be money and money means different things for people in = this world=E2=80=9D The definition of money is very subjective; when I began my involvement = with this project in Late 2010. It was a lot closer to my personal = definition of money, being an electronic cash system, whilst = transparent, we did not have dedicated corporations like Chainalysis, = nor the level of regulation (AML/KYC/CFT). We were lucky to have forum = cowboys to hunt down lost assets and even then, whether the exchange = would acknowledge the findings was another kettle of fish. In 2014, Me and many others were very much against Mike Hearn=E2=80=99s = Colored Coins as it recorded a public consensus and held judgement = against parties which could be misused and abused. Now we are in an era = where private consensus recorded behind closed doors rules the roost and = you risk forfeiting your Bitcoin by merely sending it to an exchange and = if you=E2=80=99re lucky you may get asked intrusive questions and be = allowed to have it returned to you. Technically, the mandated application of the artificially rate limited = block size has caused significant network congestion during any time of = market turbulence and rallies. Whilst I support the development of = Lightning Networks and Segregated Witness, it does not mean that the = network should be subject to ever-increasing fees. When we had High = Priority Transactions by Days Destroyed, I never had to worry about fees = unless some security or situation-critical event happened. These = unnecessary coin splits/forks that resulted in 2017 have made it = confusing to the end-consumer and destroyed continuity to anyone new to = the market. With the ever-changing climate, it=E2=80=99s an accomplishment that = Bitcoin has survived but I would consider it an Electronic Asset = more-than an Electronic Peer-to-Peer Cash System contrary to the white = paper, as it=E2=80=99s easier for the industry to rely on Bitcoin as a = Reserve Currency to the maintain the value systems of alternative = currencies. Any attempts to improve the fungibility of the protocol = (such as CoinJoin) are met with regulatory hostility which then becomes = external pressures on the developers and end-users. We are now in a brave new world where different governments, industrial = lobbies and cartels all want to have involvement in engineering the = outcome of this project and we need to remember that the usability, the = fungibility and practical applications are paramount to Bitcoin = remaining a global currency, even if it=E2=80=99s not practical to be = used as an electronic cash now without additional development within the = eco-system and very strong developers who are able to make personal = sacrifices to ensure continued development in the face of hostility. NFTs are the result of hemorrhaging VC money and distracting the public = on trivialities while hard work goes on in the background to ensure the = reserve currency (Bitcoin) is safe. The current state is a status-quo = that many do not want changing while it remains economically = advantageous to them. We should do whatever is necessary to guarantee a = free-as-in-freedom and global future for this project. Kree Love Early Adopter >> On Mar 31, 2023, at 11:30 AM, alicexbt via bitcoin-dev = wrote: >>=20 >> Hi Steve and Bitcoin Developers, >>=20 >> I have created a new thread as requested by one of the developers. I = respect him and the readers of this list. >>=20 >>> "want bitcoin to be money and money means different things for = people in >> this world" >>=20 >>> I think we can all agree that a property of money is fungibility, = and by >> its very definition NFTs are not fungible and thus not money. >>=20 >> Inscriptions do not affect fungibility of bitcoin: >>=20 >> - There is no token standard being used. These are just sats being = considered as inscription in an external protocol or explorer. Bitcoin = nodes do not consider them as something special. >> - Users can always sell those inscribed sats or UTXO as normal = bitcoin on bisq or any exchange. >> - They can use different amounts for it using tools like = https://raritygarden.inscribetheplanet.com/ which is created by super = testnet who is active dev in bitcoin and ln. >> - Inscribed sats are different from Ethereum tokens because they will = never go to zero and you can always consolidate lot of them to use as = normal bitcoin. >>=20 >> Bitcoin fungibility is anyways debatable and I cannot change anything = about it even though working on a coinjoin implmentation as some post = mix UTXOs are censored on some exchanges and its easy to identify them. = Some coinjoin implementation themselves work with chain analysis = companies to censor inputs used for rounds. >>=20 >> Ordinals theory is a parallel universe in which some users believe in = and they have been trying to learn how bitcoin works. Example: I did = call with someone this evening to explain how PSBT and multisig works = who never used bitcoin before >>=20 >> Developers are interested to build things and they have tried to = create BIP, DEX, look for libraries, ask questions, projects = implementing PSBT etc. >>=20 >> I do not live in first world country and do not attend bitdevs but = always wanted bitcoin to be here. I have tried my best but failed. = Please let people do what they want with bitcoin without changing = consensus rules. It will help Bitcoin. >>=20 >> /dev/fd0 >> floppy disk guy >>=20 >>=20 >> Sent with Proton Mail secure email. >> _______________________________________________ >> bitcoin-dev mailing list >> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org >> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev >=20 --Apple-Mail=_B238323C-E4C0-4517-AC34-FCB0016BEAF6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 I = have been meaning to respond to this thread earlier, but better late = than never.

"want bitcoin to be money and money means = different things for people in this world=E2=80=9D

The definition of money = is very subjective; when I began my involvement with this project in = Late 2010. It was a lot closer to my personal definition of money, being = an electronic cash system, whilst transparent, we did not have dedicated = corporations like Chainalysis, nor the level of regulation = (AML/KYC/CFT). We were lucky to have forum cowboys to hunt down lost = assets and even then, whether the exchange would acknowledge the = findings was another kettle of fish.

In 2014, Me and many others were very much = against Mike Hearn=E2=80=99s Colored Coins as it recorded a public = consensus and held judgement against parties which could be misused and = abused. Now we are in an era where private consensus recorded behind = closed doors rules the roost and you risk forfeiting your Bitcoin by = merely sending it to an exchange and if you=E2=80=99re lucky you may get = asked intrusive questions and be allowed to have it returned to you.

Technically, = the mandated application of the artificially rate limited block size has = caused significant network congestion during any time of market = turbulence and rallies. Whilst I support the development of Lightning = Networks and Segregated Witness, it does not mean that the network = should be subject to ever-increasing fees. When we had High Priority = Transactions by Days Destroyed, I never had to worry about fees unless = some security or situation-critical event happened. These unnecessary = coin splits/forks that resulted in 2017 have made it confusing to the = end-consumer and destroyed continuity to anyone new to the market.

With the = ever-changing climate, it=E2=80=99s an accomplishment that Bitcoin has = survived but I would consider it an Electronic Asset more-than an = Electronic Peer-to-Peer Cash System contrary to the white paper, as = it=E2=80=99s easier for the industry to rely on Bitcoin as a Reserve = Currency to the maintain the value systems of alternative currencies. = Any attempts to improve the fungibility of the protocol (such as = CoinJoin) are met with regulatory hostility which then becomes external = pressures on the developers and end-users.

We are now in a brave new = world where different governments, industrial lobbies and cartels all = want to have involvement in engineering the outcome of this project and = we need to remember that the usability, the fungibility and practical = applications are paramount to Bitcoin remaining a global currency, even = if it=E2=80=99s not practical to be used as an electronic cash now = without additional development within the eco-system and very strong = developers who are able to make personal sacrifices to ensure continued = development in the face of hostility.

NFTs are the result of = hemorrhaging VC money and distracting the public on trivialities while = hard work goes on in the background to ensure the reserve currency = (Bitcoin) is safe. The current state is a status-quo that many do not = want changing while it remains economically advantageous to them. We = should do whatever is necessary to guarantee a free-as-in-freedom and = global future for this project.

Kree Love
Early = Adopter

On Mar 31, 2023, at 11:30 AM, alicexbt via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:

Hi Steve and Bitcoin Developers,

I have created a new thread as requested by = one of the developers. I respect him and the readers of this list.

"want = bitcoin to be money and money means different things for people in
this world"

I think we can all agree = that a property of money is fungibility, and by
its very definition NFTs are not fungible and = thus not money.

Inscriptions do not affect = fungibility of bitcoin:

- There is no token = standard being used. These are just sats being considered as inscription = in an external protocol or explorer. Bitcoin nodes do not consider them = as something special.
- Users can always sell those = inscribed sats or UTXO as normal bitcoin on bisq or any exchange.
- They can use different amounts for it using tools like https://raritygarden.inscribetheplanet.com/ which is = created by super testnet who is active dev in bitcoin and ln.
- Inscribed sats are different from Ethereum tokens because = they will never go to zero and you can always consolidate lot of them to = use as normal bitcoin.

Bitcoin fungibility = is anyways debatable and I cannot change anything about it even though = working on a coinjoin implmentation as some post mix UTXOs are censored = on some exchanges and its easy to identify them. Some coinjoin = implementation themselves work with chain analysis companies to censor = inputs used for rounds.

Ordinals theory is = a parallel universe in which some users believe in and they have been = trying to learn how bitcoin works. Example: I did call with someone this = evening to explain how PSBT and multisig works who never used bitcoin = before

Developers are interested to build = things and they have tried to create BIP, DEX, look for libraries, ask = questions, projects implementing PSBT etc.

I = do not live in first world country and do not attend bitdevs but always = wanted bitcoin to be here. I have tried my best but failed. Please let = people do what they want with bitcoin without changing consensus rules. = It will help Bitcoin.

/dev/fd0
floppy disk guy


Sent with Proton Mail secure email.
_______________________________________________
bitcoin-dev mailing list
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev<= br class=3D"">


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