Received: from sog-mx-2.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.192] helo=mx.sourceforge.net) by sfs-ml-3.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1WgcWG-0008Dv-TE for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Sat, 03 May 2014 16:10:33 +0000 X-ACL-Warn: Received: from wp059.webpack.hosteurope.de ([80.237.132.66]) by sog-mx-2.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.76) id 1WgcWC-0004xt-MX for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Sat, 03 May 2014 16:10:32 +0000 Received: from [37.143.74.116] (helo=[192.168.2.2]); authenticated by wp059.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) id 1WgcW6-00056l-8L; Sat, 03 May 2014 18:10:22 +0200 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_B2E81DA9-47A9-47E5-8B22-81B317400CE3"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.2 \(1874\)) From: Tamas Blummer In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 3 May 2014 18:10:22 +0200 Message-Id: References: <53644F13.1080203@gmail.com> To: slush X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1874) X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de; tamas@bitsofproof.com; 1399133428; 15e2c0fc; X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net. See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. 1.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message X-Headers-End: 1WgcWC-0004xt-MX Cc: Bitcoin Development Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] "bits": Unit of account X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 03 May 2014 16:10:33 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_B2E81DA9-47A9-47E5-8B22-81B317400CE3 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_8E3AE7A6-33E2-4764-80BA-55203F5255EF" --Apple-Mail=_8E3AE7A6-33E2-4764-80BA-55203F5255EF Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 bit has a lot of meanings to geeks, so what. bit means for average people: - something very small, that 100 satoshi is.=20 - part of the name Bitcoin - easy to get conversion 1 coin =3D 1 million bits =3D 1 Bitcoin Regards, Tamas Blummer Founder, CEO http://bitsofproof.com On 03.05.2014, at 18:02, slush wrote: > Excellent points Christophe! >=20 > Although moving to 1e-6 units is fine for me and I see advantages of = doing this, I don't get that people on this mailing list are fine with = calling such unit "bit". It's geeky as hell, ambiguous and confusing.=20 >=20 > slush >=20 >=20 > On Sat, May 3, 2014 at 5:48 PM, Christophe Biocca = wrote: > Context as a disambiguator works fine when the interlocutors > understand the topics they're talking about. > Not a day goes by without me seeing "neurotypical people" get horribly > confused between RAM and Hard Drive sizes, because they share the same > units (not that that can be helped, as the units are supposed to be > the same, base 1000 vs 1024 notwithstanding). >=20 > Bit (as a unit) is already really confusing for anyone who doesn't > deal with it on a regular basis. I think people who don't see an issue > are making an assumption based on their own lack of confusion. We > understand computer science AND Bitcoin. Most people have zero > understanding of either. >=20 > Bitcoin already has a ton of issues with terrible names for things: >=20 > - Mining (for transaction validation). > - Addresses (which are meant to be one-time use, and don't even really > exist at the network level). > - Wallets (which don't hold your bitcoins, can be copied, and all > backups can be stolen from equally). >=20 > I end up having to make the distinctions obvious every time I explain > Bitcoin to someone new to it. There's an acceptable tradeoff here, > because there were arguably no better words to assign to these > concepts (although I'd argue mining is a really awful metaphor, and is > the one that prompts the most questions from people). Then add to the > pile a bunch of third parties naming themselves after parts of the > protocol (Coinbase,Blockchain.info). Not blaming them for it, but I've > definitiely seen average people get confused between "the blockchain" > and "blockchain.info" (not so much Coinbase, because that name doesn't > come up in beginner explanations). >=20 > It seems downright masochistic to add > yet-another-word-that-doesn't-mean-what-you-think-it-means to the pile > for no reason other than aesthetics. Are we actively trying to confuse > people? >=20 > On Sat, May 3, 2014 at 1:41 AM, Aaron Voisine = wrote: > > I have to agree with Mike. Human language is surprisingly tolerant = of > > overloading and inference from context. Neurotypical people have no > > problem with it and perceive a software engineer's aversion to it as > > being pedantic and strange. Note that "bits" was a term for a unit = of > > money long before the invention of digital computers. > > > > Aaron > > > > There's no trick to being a humorist when you have the whole > > government working for you -- Will Rodgers > > > > > > On Fri, May 2, 2014 at 7:06 PM, Gordon Mohr = wrote: > >> [resend - apologies if duplicate] > >> > >> Microbitcoin is a good-sized unit, workable for everyday = transaction > >> values, with room-to-grow, and a nice relationship to satoshis as = 'cents'. > >> > >> But "bits" has problems as a unit name. > >> > >> "Bits" will be especially problematic whenever people try to = graduate > >> from informal use to understanding the system internals - that is, = when > >> the real "bits" of key sizes, hash sizes, and storage/bandwidth = needs > >> become important. The "bit" as "binary digit" was important enough = that > >> Satoshi named the system after it; that homage gets lost if the = word is > >> muddied with a new retconned meaning that's quite different. > >> > >> Some examples of possible problems: > >> > >> * If "bit" equals "100 satoshis", then the natural-language = unpacking of > >> "bit-coin" is "100 satoshi coin", which runs against all prior = usage. > >> > >> * If people are informed that a "256-bit private key" is what = ultimately > >> controls their balances, it could prompt confusion like, "if each = key > >> has 256-bits, will I need 40 keys to hold 10,000.00 bits?" > >> > >> * When people learn that there are 8 bits to a byte, they may = think, > >> "OK, my wallet holding my 80,000.00 bits will then take up 10 = kilobytes". > >> > >> * When people naturally extend "bit" into "kilobits" to mean "1000 > >> bits", then the new coinage "kilobits" will mean the exact same = amount > >> (100,000 satoshi) as many have already been calling "millibits". > >> > >> I believe it'd be best to pick a new made-up single-syllable word = as a > >> synonym for "microbitcoin", and I've laid out the case for "zib" as = that > >> word at . > >> > >> 'Zib' also lends itself to an expressive unicode symbol, '=C6=B5' > >> (Z-with-stroke), that remains distinctive even if it loses its = stroke or > >> gets case-reversed. (Comparatively, all 'b'-derived symbols for > >> data-bits, bitcoins, or '100 satoshi bits' risk collision in = contexts > >> where subtleties of casing/stroking are lost.) > >> > >> (There's summary of more problems with "bit" in the zibcoin.org FAQ = at: > >> .) > >> > >> - Gordon > >> > >> On 5/1/14, 3:35 PM, Aaron Voisine wrote: > >>> I'm also a big fan of standardizing on microBTC as the standard = unit. > >>> I didn't like the name "bits" at first, but the more I think about = it, > >>> the more I like it. The main thing going for it is the fact that = it's > >>> part of the name bitcoin. If Bitcoin is the protocol and network, = bits > >>> are an obvious choice for the currency unit. > >>> > >>> I would like to propose using Unicode character U+0180, lowercase = b > >>> with stroke, as the symbol to represent the microBTC denomination, > >>> whether we call bits or something else: > >>> http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/0180/index.htm > >>> > >>> Another candidate is Unicode character U+2422, the blank symbol, = but I > >>> prefer stroke b. > >>> http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/2422/index.htm > >>> > >>> Aaron > >>> > >>> There's no trick to being a humorist when you have the whole > >>> government working for you -- Will Rodgers > >>> > >>>> On Apr 21, 2014 5:41 AM, "Pieter Wuille" = wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> On Apr 21, 2014 3:37 AM, "Un Ix" wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> Something tells me this would be reduced to a single syllable in = common > >>>>> usage I.e. bit. > >>>> > >>>> What units will be called colloquially is not something = developers will > >>>> determine. It will vary, depend on language and culture, and is = not > >>>> relevant to this discussion in my opinion. > >>>> > >>>> It may well be that people in some geographic or language area = will end up > >>>> (or for a while) calling 1e-06 BTC "bits". That's fine, but using = that as > >>>> "official" name in software would be very strange and potentially = confusing > >>>> in my opinion. As mentioned by others, that would seem to me like = calling > >>>> dollars "bucks" in bank software. Nobody seems to have a problem = with > >>>> having colloquial names, but "US dollar" or "euro" are far less = ambiguous > >>>> than "bit". I think we need a more distinctive name. > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> Pieter > >>> > >>> = --------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- > >>> "Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For = FREE > >>> Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. = Get > >>> unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform = available. > >>> Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free." > >>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Bitcoin-development mailing list > >>> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development > >>> > >> > >> = --------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- > >> "Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For = FREE > >> Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. = Get > >> unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform = available. > >> Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free." > >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Bitcoin-development mailing list > >> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development > > > > = --------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- > > "Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For = FREE > > Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. = Get > > unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform = available. > > Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free." > > http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs > > _______________________________________________ > > Bitcoin-development mailing list > > Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development >=20 > = --------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- > "Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE > Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. Get > unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform = available. > Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free." > http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs > _______________________________________________ > Bitcoin-development mailing list > Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development >=20 > = --------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- > "Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE > Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. Get=20= > unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform = available. > Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free." > = http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs_____________________________________________= __ > Bitcoin-development mailing list > Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development --Apple-Mail=_8E3AE7A6-33E2-4764-80BA-55203F5255EF Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 bit = has a lot of meanings to geeks, so what.

bit means for average people:
- = something very small, that 100 satoshi is. 
- part of the name Bitcoin
- easy to get conversion 1 coin =3D 1 = million bits =3D 1 Bitcoin

Regards,

Tamas = Blummer
Founder, = CEO
http://bitsofproof.com

On 03.05.2014, at 18:02, slush <slush@centrum.cz> = wrote:

Excellent points = Christophe!

Although moving to 1e-6 units is fine for = me and I see advantages of doing this, I don't get that people on this = mailing list are fine with calling such unit "bit". It's geeky as hell, = ambiguous and confusing. 

slush


On Sat, May 3, = 2014 at 5:48 PM, Christophe Biocca <christophe.biocca@gmail.com> wrote:
Context as a = disambiguator works fine when the interlocutors
understand the topics they're talking about.
Not a day goes by without me seeing "neurotypical people" get = horribly
confused between RAM and Hard Drive sizes, because they share the = same
units (not that that can be helped, as the units are supposed to be
the same, base 1000 vs 1024 notwithstanding).

Bit (as a unit) is already really confusing for anyone who doesn't
deal with it on a regular basis. I think people who don't see an = issue
are making an assumption based on their own lack of confusion. We
understand computer science AND Bitcoin. Most people have zero
understanding of either.

Bitcoin already has a ton of issues with terrible names for things:

- Mining (for transaction validation).
- Addresses (which are meant to be one-time use, and don't even = really
exist at the network level).
- Wallets (which don't hold your bitcoins, can be copied, and all
backups can be stolen from equally).

I end up having to make the distinctions obvious every time I = explain
Bitcoin to someone new to it. There's an acceptable tradeoff here,
because there were arguably no better words to assign to these
concepts (although I'd argue mining is a really awful metaphor, and = is
the one that prompts the most questions from people). Then add to = the
pile a bunch of third parties naming themselves after parts of the
protocol (Coinbase,Blockchain.info). Not blaming them for it, but = I've
definitiely seen average people get confused between "the = blockchain"
and "blockchain.info" (not so much Coinbase, because = that name doesn't
come up in beginner explanations).

It seems downright masochistic to add
yet-another-word-that-doesn't-mean-what-you-think-it-means to the = pile
for no reason other than aesthetics. Are we actively trying to = confuse
people?

On Sat, May 3, 2014 at 1:41 AM, Aaron Voisine <voisine@gmail.com> wrote:
> I have to agree with Mike. Human language is surprisingly tolerant = of
> overloading and inference from context. Neurotypical people have = no
> problem with it and perceive a software engineer's aversion to it = as
> being pedantic and strange. Note that "bits" was a term for a unit = of
> money long before the invention of digital computers.
>
> Aaron
>
> There's no trick to being a humorist when you have the whole
> government working for you -- Will Rodgers
>
>
> On Fri, May 2, 2014 at 7:06 PM, Gordon Mohr <gojomo@gmail.com> wrote:
>> [resend - apologies if duplicate]
>>
>> Microbitcoin is a good-sized unit, workable for everyday = transaction
>> values, with room-to-grow, and a nice relationship to satoshis = as 'cents'.
>>
>> But "bits" has problems as a unit name.
>>
>> "Bits" will be especially problematic whenever people try to = graduate
>> from informal use to understanding the system internals - that = is, when
>> the real "bits" of key sizes, hash sizes, and storage/bandwidth = needs
>> become important. The "bit" as "binary digit" was important = enough that
>> Satoshi named the system after it; that homage gets lost if the = word is
>> muddied with a new retconned meaning that's quite = different.
>>
>> Some examples of possible problems:
>>
>> * If "bit" equals "100 satoshis", then the natural-language = unpacking of
>> "bit-coin" is "100 satoshi coin", which runs against all prior = usage.
>>
>> * If people are informed that a "256-bit private key" is what = ultimately
>> controls their balances, it could prompt confusion like, "if = each key
>> has 256-bits, will I need 40 keys to hold 10,000.00 bits?"
>>
>> * When people learn that there are 8 bits to a byte, they may = think,
>> "OK, my wallet holding my 80,000.00 bits will then take up 10 = kilobytes".
>>
>> * When people naturally extend "bit" into "kilobits" to mean = "1000
>> bits", then the new coinage "kilobits" will mean the exact same = amount
>> (100,000 satoshi) as many have already been calling = "millibits".
>>
>> I believe it'd be best to pick a new made-up single-syllable = word as a
>> synonym for "microbitcoin", and I've laid out the case for = "zib" as that
>> word at <http://zibcoin.org>.
>>
>> 'Zib' also lends itself to an expressive unicode symbol, = '=C6=B5'
>> (Z-with-stroke), that remains distinctive even if it loses its = stroke or
>> gets case-reversed. (Comparatively, all 'b'-derived symbols = for
>> data-bits, bitcoins, or '100 satoshi bits' risk collision in = contexts
>> where subtleties of casing/stroking are lost.)
>>
>> (There's summary of more problems with "bit" in the zibcoin.org FAQ =  at:
>> <http://zibcoin.org/faq#why-not-bits-to-mean-microbitcoin= s>.)
>>
>> - Gordon
>>
>> On 5/1/14, 3:35 PM, Aaron Voisine wrote:
>>> I'm also a big fan of standardizing on microBTC as the = standard unit.
>>> I didn't like the name "bits" at first, but the more I = think about it,
>>> the more I like it. The main thing going for it is the fact = that it's
>>> part of the name bitcoin. If Bitcoin is the protocol and = network, bits
>>> are an obvious choice for the currency unit.
>>>
>>> I would like to propose using Unicode character U+0180, = lowercase b
>>> with stroke, as the symbol to represent the microBTC = denomination,
>>> whether we call bits or something else:
>>>   http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/0180/index.= htm
>>>
>>> Another candidate is Unicode character U+2422, the blank = symbol, but I
>>> prefer stroke b.
>>> http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/2422/index.= htm
>>>
>>> Aaron
>>>
>>> There's no trick to being a humorist when you have the = whole
>>> government working for you -- Will Rodgers
>>>
>>>> On Apr 21, 2014 5:41 AM, "Pieter Wuille" = <pieter.wuille@gm...> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Apr 21, 2014 3:37 AM, "Un Ix" = <slashdevnull@...> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Something tells me this would be reduced to a = single syllable in common
>>>>> usage I.e. bit.
>>>>
>>>> What units will be called colloquially is not something = developers will
>>>> determine. It will vary, depend on language and = culture, and is not
>>>> relevant to this discussion in my opinion.
>>>>
>>>> It may well be that people in some geographic or = language area will end up
>>>> (or for a while) calling 1e-06 BTC "bits". That's fine, = but using that as
>>>> "official" name in software would be very strange and = potentially confusing
>>>> in my opinion. As mentioned by others, that would seem = to me like calling
>>>> dollars "bucks" in bank software. Nobody seems to have = a problem with
>>>> having colloquial names, but "US dollar" or "euro" are = far less ambiguous
>>>> than "bit". I think we need a more distinctive = name.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Pieter
>>>
>>> = --------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----
>>> "Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing = - For FREE
>>> Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS = combos.  Get
>>> unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing = platform available.
>>> Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for = free."
>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>>> Bitcoin-developm= ent@lists.sourceforge.net
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-dev= elopment
>>>
>>
>> = --------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----
>> "Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - = For FREE
>> Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS = combos.  Get
>> unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing = platform available.
>> Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for = free."
>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>> Bitcoin-developm= ent@lists.sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-dev= elopment
>
> = --------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----
> "Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For = FREE
> Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. =  Get
> unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform = available.
> Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free."
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-developm= ent@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-dev= elopment

= --------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----
"Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For = FREE
Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. =  Get
unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform = available.
Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free."
http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs
_______________________________________________
Bitcoin-development mailing list
Bitcoin-developm= ent@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-dev= elopment

= --------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----
"Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - = For FREE
Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS = combos.  Get
unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium = testing platform available.
Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get = started now for free."
http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs_________________________________= ______________
Bitcoin-development mailing = list
Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourcef= orge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development

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