Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2014 12:08:39 -0600
From: Troy Benjegerdes <hozer@hozed.org>
To: Jeff Garzik <jgarzik@bitpay.com>
Message-ID: <20140302180839.GQ3180@nl.grid.coop>
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User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15)
Cc: Bitcoin Dev <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>
Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Decentralized digital asset exchange with
 honest pricing and market depth
Precedence: list

I'm asking for how to DEVELOP THE CODE so I can trade between two block 
chains, and then I'm going to start trading cats and dogs and bits.

Somewhere in trying to figure out the design spec we got caught up in existential
concern about 'globally knowable and accurate price history', and I'm telling you
it doesn't matter.

I'm the customer and the developer, someone give me a clear design document to
trade between two chains and I can write it, and then we can debate improvements.
 

On Sat, Mar 01, 2014 at 01:33:25PM -0500, Jeff Garzik wrote:
> This is not bitcoin-philosophy, it's bitcoin-development.  Existential
> philosophy belongs on IRC or the forums.
> 
> 
> On Sat, Mar 1, 2014 at 1:28 PM, Mark Friedenbach <mark@monetize.io> wrote:
> > Only if you view bitcoin as no more than a payment network.
> >
> > On Mar 1, 2014 10:24 AM, "Jeff Garzik" <jgarzik@bitpay.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> This is wandering far off-topic for this mailing list.
> >>
> >> On Sat, Mar 1, 2014 at 12:45 PM, Troy Benjegerdes <hozer@hozed.org> wrote:
> >> >> > You can make the same argument against Bitcoin itself you know...
> >> >> >
> >> >> > A Bitmessage-like network would be trivial to front-run via a sybil
> >> >> > attack. It's the fundemental problem with marketplaces - the data
> >> >> > they're trying to publish has to be public.
> >> >>
> >> >> I don't see the Bitcoin analogy...
> >> >> Anyway, I still don't think the seller cares, if he sells at the price
> >> >> he was asking, what would he care about "front running" those parallel
> >> >> networks.
> >> >> I've seen many street markets without "public information" and they
> >> >> work just well.
> >> >
> >> > The spot price for ammonia fertilizer, refined gasoline at terminals,
> >> > and price of tea in china are not 'public information', yet these are
> >> > some of the largest traded commodities in the world, far exceeding
> >> > the drop in the bucket that all cryptocoin transactions make.
> >> >
> >> > I'd further argue that the *actual* price of corn (cash bid price at
> >> > elevators and ethanol plants) is not public information either. There
> >> > is a great deal of money traded in collecting and then distributing the
> >> > 'cleared price' information. Have a look at
> >> >
> >> > http://www.interquote.com/template.cfm?navgroup=aboutlist&urlcode=12&view=1
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >> >> I don't think this will be a tragedy, because like we discussed on
> >> >> >> IRC, I don't think the primary goal of markets is price discovery,
> >> >> >> but
> >> >> >> trade itself.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> About historic data, the actual trades are always public, and some
> >> >> >> kind of "archivers" could collect and maintain old orders for
> >> >> >> historic
> >> >> >> bid and asks, etc.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > And again, how do you know that record is honest? Fact is without
> >> >> > proof-of-publication you just don't.
> >> >>
> >> >> Well, the trades that appeared in the chain actually occurred.
> >> >> Buying to yourself at fake prices? Be careful, the miner could just
> >> >> separate the order and fill it himself. Or anyone paying a higher fee,
> >> >> for that matter.
> >> >
> >> > You just made my long-term strategic argument for investing in my own
> >> > mining hardware so I can be sure to trade reliably.
> >> >
> >> >> Again, you haven't addressed why the seller cares more about "accurate
> >> >> historic market data" than just his own fees and sell.
> >> >>
> >> >> > You mean a reverse nLockTime that makes a transaction invalid after a
> >> >> > certain amount of time - that's dangerous in a reorg unfortunately as
> >> >> > it
> >> >> > can make transactions permenantly invalid.
> >> >
> >> > People who take money from buyers and sellers care most about 'accurate
> >> > historic market data'. I just want to exchange my corn for e85,
> >> > fertilizer,
> >> > and electricity, and audit the code that runs accounting for the
> >> > exchange.
> >> >
> >> > I really don't give a shit if there is 'accurate historic market data'
> >> > as
> >> > long as **MY** personal trade data is accurate and I got a good enough
> >> > price,
> >> > and I know who I'm dealing with.
> >> >
> >> > I know someone smarter than me and with more money, market leverage, and
> >> > political connections **WILL** game the system and distort the market
> >> > data
> >> > history so they can take more money from buyers and sellers without
> >> > actually
> >> > doing some usefull market function.
> >> >
> >> > As long as use buyers and sellers can see the code, and have a good eye
> >> > for
> >> > knowing when someone's pushing the market around, we can just put our
> >> > orders
> >> > in and relieve some speculators of their money.
> >> >
> >> > Just get me working code for cross-chain trades, and we'll work on the
> >> > accurate historic data problem later.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> > Troy Benjegerdes                 'da hozer'
> >> > hozer@hozed.org
> >> > 7 elements      earth::water::air::fire::mind::spirit::soul
> >> > grid.coop
> >> >
> >> >       Never pick a fight with someone who buys ink by the barrel,
> >> >          nor try buy a hacker who makes money by the megahash
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> > Flow-based real-time traffic analytics software. Cisco certified tool.
> >> > Monitor traffic, SLAs, QoS, Medianet, WAAS etc. with NetFlow Analyzer
> >> > Customize your own dashboards, set traffic alerts and generate reports.
> >> > Network behavioral analysis & security monitoring. All-in-one tool.
> >> >
> >> > http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=126839071&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > Bitcoin-development mailing list
> >> > Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
> >> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Jeff Garzik
> >> Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist
> >> BitPay, Inc.      https://bitpay.com/
> >>
> >>
> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> Flow-based real-time traffic analytics software. Cisco certified tool.
> >> Monitor traffic, SLAs, QoS, Medianet, WAAS etc. with NetFlow Analyzer
> >> Customize your own dashboards, set traffic alerts and generate reports.
> >> Network behavioral analysis & security monitoring. All-in-one tool.
> >>
> >> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=126839071&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> >> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Jeff Garzik
> Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist
> BitPay, Inc.      https://bitpay.com/

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Troy Benjegerdes                 'da hozer'                  hozer@hozed.org
7 elements      earth::water::air::fire::mind::spirit::soul        grid.coop

      Never pick a fight with someone who buys ink by the barrel,
         nor try buy a hacker who makes money by the megahash