Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2102\))
Content-Type: multipart/signed;
	boundary="Apple-Mail=_8A9442D6-22B0-411D-B59A-462100C944F2";
	protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512
From: Tamas Blummer <tamas@bitsofproof.com>
In-Reply-To: <55D5C843.5040204@bitcoins.info>
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 16:25:21 +0200
Message-Id: <4F2015D1-1941-4934-BDD7-292B8A7C18EC@bitsofproof.com>
References: <CADWuND3EfO6YO3g4H09_mWhrHC4PX4SZpTTuETiX2PyCxSRCsQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<55D1167B.1060107@gmail.com>
	<CAEX2NSfaPv0g07hfT31voGWX05Z6uaBsZOjhMkOwBr4mdHbPQw@mail.gmail.com>
	<55D124D7.4050209@gmail.com>
	<61AD0CE6-014E-44E2-B9C7-00B35D2E09CC@petertodd.org>
	<CAEX2NSeAgrN877zAVDrk_J+7EVDPagt8u4+HB7hDMVMPwS6Zng@mail.gmail.com>
	<F99FFEE6-6D10-480D-B96D-960B84092C88@gmail.com>
	<CABm2gDoEVmqiOpPcf1wUsNt4pmU=oVawq2-0YwrEjm1W1YBmeg@mail.gmail.com>
	<55D4A3BD.2060706@sky-ip.org>
	<CABm2gDo-jgE7ow5eNTp70YwQKNL3OfDMT=uU9H6G09MS_J2k-Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<55D5AB11.3090307@sky-ip.org> <55D5BAE1.4090101@bitcoins.info>
	<CAAO2FKHQvfDbS=LW1epbFpUeqFPut8bL_w=Pjb1+BxLRoxagMQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<55D5C843.5040204@bitcoins.info>
To: Milly Bitcoin <milly@bitcoins.info>
Cc: Bitcoin Dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Bitcoin XT 0.11A
Precedence: list


--Apple-Mail=_8A9442D6-22B0-411D-B59A-462100C944F2
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
	boundary="Apple-Mail=_ABE59D77-F17C-4AF1-AF92-453BF41A5AF0"


--Apple-Mail=_ABE59D77-F17C-4AF1-AF92-453BF41A5AF0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset=us-ascii

POW is by design the voting mechanism for the valid chain continuation.

Many rightfully dislike that the same voting mechanism is used on the =
validity rules, since ideally
validators (non-mining full nodes), SPV user and even those having an =
investment in their cold wallet
would all have a vote.

That ideal voting mechanism is not yet in the protocol.

Before XT we used discussions and an informal consensus of those with =
commit access to github to evolve Bitcoin.
The decision, not the discussion, is now suggested to be replaced with =
POW vote with XT.

It is not hard to see problems with both approaches.

If XT comes closer to miner majority, validators will also be forced to =
take side, so they will be able to express
their vote. I think that most Bitcoin entrepreneurs will pick XT if Core =
has no comparable offer
to scale transactions per second.

XT, Not-XT and a Core with some not-BIP101 offer will potentially set =
the stage for the perfect hard fork storm.

I still believe, that the idea of Bitcoin is powerful enough to weather =
that storm.

Tamas Blummer

> On Aug 20, 2015, at 14:29, Milly Bitcoin via bitcoin-dev =
<bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>=20
>> Security is provided via POW.
>=20
> POW is only one aspect of security and that algorithm was created by =
developers and adopted by miners.  Developers provide security by =
creating an algorithm and miners provide security by adopting it.  If =
the developers and miners decided to do something insecure then Bitcoin =
will be insecure.  POW is not some outside force.
>=20
> The security of Bitcoin as a system is a very complex subject that =
involve a number of factors that are the result of actions by humans.
>=20
> Russ
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>=20


--Apple-Mail=_ABE59D77-F17C-4AF1-AF92-453BF41A5AF0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=us-ascii

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dus-ascii"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">POW is by design the voting mechanism for the =
valid chain continuation.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Many rightfully dislike that the same =
voting mechanism is used on the validity rules, since =
ideally&nbsp;</div><div class=3D"">validators (non-mining full nodes), =
SPV user and even those having an investment in their cold =
wallet&nbsp;</div><div class=3D"">would all have a vote.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">That ideal voting =
mechanism is not yet in the protocol.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Before XT we used discussions and an =
informal consensus of those with commit access to github to evolve =
Bitcoin.</div><div class=3D"">The decision, not the discussion, is now =
suggested to be replaced with POW vote with XT.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">It is not hard to see problems with =
both approaches.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">If XT comes closer to miner majority, validators will also be =
forced to take side, so they will be able to express</div><div =
class=3D"">their vote. I think that most Bitcoin entrepreneurs will pick =
XT if Core has no comparable offer&nbsp;</div><div class=3D"">to scale =
transactions per second.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">XT, Not-XT and a Core with some not-BIP101 offer will =
potentially set the stage for the perfect hard fork =
storm.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I =
still believe, that the idea of Bitcoin is powerful enough to weather =
that storm.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div>Tamas Blummer<br =
class=3D""><div apple-content-edited=3D"true" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></div><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Aug 20, 2015, at 14:29, Milly Bitcoin via =
bitcoin-dev &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" =
class=3D"">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D"">Security is provided via POW.<br =
class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">POW is only one aspect of =
security and that algorithm was created by developers and adopted by =
miners. &nbsp;Developers provide security by creating an algorithm and =
miners provide security by adopting it. &nbsp;If the developers and =
miners decided to do something insecure then Bitcoin will be insecure. =
&nbsp;POW is not some outside force.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">The =
security of Bitcoin as a system is a very complex subject that involve a =
number of factors that are the result of actions by humans.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Russ<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">bitcoin-dev mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" =
class=3D"">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a><br =
class=3D"">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev<=
br class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_ABE59D77-F17C-4AF1-AF92-453BF41A5AF0--

--Apple-Mail=_8A9442D6-22B0-411D-B59A-462100C944F2
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: attachment;
	filename=signature.asc
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature;
	name=signature.asc
Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org

iQEcBAEBCgAGBQJV1eNSAAoJEPZykcUXcTkcAjkH/AsMg9728E2D9dGuQrGNnXwj
rCEvTPaKfTRWNIM+bRFmzbKC3QE2jrKrxEBO4mhdTiytC/mTj8IakVOQpueetXEy
tf16kW6/BHMI9O3bpD2g7WvdFyknk7YNxl4J3UWAonHwHUvfJOi4x9YQICzLFkyX
mL7eX6LLE5bMyFoCTia5nO7CSwfa3uzTehQQY/6zZu0qYHFIV5enJPiZlptM4kK9
7O6RiIZrdNs6Nymyw8U1BKf6ZpGPYJGWMwctCguAk0cEqbsqGVwD+gCN3GjWvLQk
gfdY7NmGNViOt4vzeTpTwBqfUtYTVoULTxj1rF/7Ahk5354cVvMiexfsy3Pcv58=
=S9An
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--Apple-Mail=_8A9442D6-22B0-411D-B59A-462100C944F2--