Return-Path: Received: from smtp4.osuosl.org (smtp4.osuosl.org [IPv6:2605:bc80:3010::137]) by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2F63C000B for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2022 00:37:01 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp4.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE9F5417CB for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2022 00:37:01 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: smtp4.osuosl.org (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from smtp4.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp4.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Mg97N6RIcTQd for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2022 00:37:00 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.8.0 Received: from mail-lj1-x230.google.com (mail-lj1-x230.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::230]) by smtp4.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 828B1417C5 for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2022 00:37:00 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-lj1-x230.google.com with SMTP id o6so931730ljp.3 for ; Tue, 08 Mar 2022 16:37:00 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=bgKa1NmF7EXrFlZoAWpi48UN2kAFtUCBe1BlDhE9SOQ=; b=ToVEgKkCVpZZM3Vo+Y35YVas2O3Q/R1uWHBrVvqRsVE5qnw4P1Qa3Of3MkEIP/d0aI VCmIA3SwXtezCeKq4VmvHuMgPunSfOC6lDZ1jSemKRA7Pj58taQqr+qP9HjatfZM4Q99 8a7hwrXoR+0UufttqPkk6IdZ9I57paLaharySWiWEhriGpPLvqLFtj2aVF5pe5L5C0Af 8f6IXfFmGptn/Pj90/naEbaYle20R/qdR9fmznFSS0DZjcT3syKkyhBvxNsA5BQFLTRb uJulkTWSGYD0XXgGrwtq7M5vz4IYsqsVt0Z85KbCPNPN8krZGjpP7VAR98nH+lW8DtdV tGGA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=bgKa1NmF7EXrFlZoAWpi48UN2kAFtUCBe1BlDhE9SOQ=; b=t7mKhM+sE8rQjstXtwKgbvZivuDiXVRKDVUCHPAAfgYu1pmsE6qWZR2RUPai5d5e6u dcC5i1jdvudzW4KPlbTYccobRgDI8UaOOxiCnMzaoO1FeFtQ+BNNCaJdNdON9PDxMn0T +MsN2GYF780vTsberMABPe6/983zmSBFNeNCyt/vkfzfzHQI/P/pJFlhz9YT67wLF8cH UFctJ0HGQXJslLNajR6bAuMmAoUeu+A+cCzyOAlF9bEsnr3ERJvrVGeij/Nu8f2G9FkU 1R0mbg/Z02RN4k7OfiCStVk/zeh8fhMh5Z2RzBc7n+w/TmqGpblTdYFmlhKemDgKN9LI RNAw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530ckb4yLpEioXHg19eDT/18Giv9t24M0Sfcc961IsZHawcZ48vK RJlhSim1rxzFzyOubtXgVPzsxiio4WIxWTmTZYM6XIajMSE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzRCYpF49GcfPi8+nfq81vz1kDJweX2GItYSRJxFzjsTnXrvQn9H7PeFQE4zrEkSpjXraRU3D1Y3xHvfPkmfQI= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:aa14:0:b0:245:fd1d:4eba with SMTP id bf20-20020a2eaa14000000b00245fd1d4ebamr12259888ljb.425.1646786217958; Tue, 08 Mar 2022 16:36:57 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Jeremy Rubin Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2022 16:36:46 -0800 Message-ID: To: Bitcoin development mailing list Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000008ae2a805d9be4bd7" Subject: [bitcoin-dev] Meeting Summary & Logs for CTV Meeting #5 X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2022 00:37:02 -0000 --0000000000008ae2a805d9be4bd7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Logs here: https://gnusha.org/ctv-bip-review/2022-03-08.log Notes: 1) Sapio Updates Sapio has Experimental Taproot Support now. See logs for how to help. Rust-bitcoin can also use your help reviewing, e.g. https://github.com/rust-bitcoin/rust-miniscript/pull/305 Adding MuSig support for the oracle servers would be really cool, if someone wants a challenge. 2) Transaction Sponsors What sponsors are vs. RBF/CPFP. Why there's not a BIP # assigned (despite it being written up as a BIP+impl in https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2020-September/018168.html, should only get a number if it seems like people agree). 3) James' Vaults Post James' vaults are similar to prior art on recursive CTV vaults (Kanzure's / Jeremy's), where the number of steps = 1. Actually ends up being a very good design for many custody purposes, might be a good "80% of the benefit 20% of the work" type of thing. People maybe want different things out of vaults... how customizable must it be? 4) Mailing list be poppin' Zmn shared a prepared remark which spurred a nice conversation. General sentiment that we should be careful adding crazy amounts of power, with great power comes great responsibility... Maybe we shouldn't care though -- don't send to scripts you don't like? Math is scary -- you can do all sorts of bizarre stuff with more power (e.g., what if you made an EVM inside a bitcoin output). Things like OP_EVICT should be bounded by design. Problem X: Infrastructure issue for all more flexible covenants: 1) generate a transition function you would like 2) compile it into a script covenant 3) request the transition/txn you want to have happen 4) produce a satisifaction of the script covenant for that transaction 5) prove the transition function *is* what you wanted/secure Quantifying how hard X is for a given proposal is a good idea. You can prototype covenants with federations in Sapio pretty easily... more people should try this! 5) General discuss People suck at naming things... give things more unique names for protocols! Jeremy will name something the Hot Tub Coin Machine Some discussion on forking, if theres any kind of consensus forming, doing things like https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2021-April/018833.html How much does a shot-on-goal cost / unforced errors of not making an activating client available precluding being able to activate luke-jr: never ST; ST is a reason enough to oppose CTV jamesob: OP_DOTHETHING best, Jeremy -- @JeremyRubin --0000000000008ae2a805d9be4bd7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Logs here:=C2=A0htt= ps://gnusha.org/ctv-bip-review/2022-03-08.log

Notes:

1) Sap= io Updates

Sapio has Experimental Taproot Support now.
See logs for how to help.
Rust-bitcoin can also use your help reviewing, e.g.=C2=A0https://git= hub.com/rust-bitcoin/rust-miniscript/pull/305
Adding MuSig support for the oracle servers would be really co= ol, if someone wants a challenge.
<= br>
2) Transaction Sponsors

W= hat sponsors are vs. RBF/CPFP.
Why th= ere's not a BIP # assigned (despite it being written up as a BIP+impl i= n=C2=A0https://lists.linuxfoundation.= org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2020-September/018168.html, should only get a= number if it seems like people agree).

3) James' Vaults Post

James' vaults are similar to prior art on recursive CTV vaults (Kanz= ure's / Jeremy's), where the number of steps =3D 1.
Actually ends up being a very good design for many c= ustody purposes, might be a good "80% of the benefit 20% of the work&q= uot; type of thing.
People maybe want= different things out of vaults... how=C2=A0customizable must it be?
<= div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif= ;font-size:small;color:#000000">
= 4) Mailing list be poppin'

Zmn shared a prepared remark which spu= rred a nice conversation.
General sen= timent that we should be careful adding crazy amounts of power, with great = power comes great responsibility...
M= aybe we shouldn't care though -- don't send to scripts you don'= t like?
Math is scary -- you can do a= ll sorts of bizarre stuff with more power (e.g., what if you made an EVM in= side a bitcoin output).
Things like O= P_EVICT should be bounded by design.
Problem X: Infrastructure issue for all more flexible covenants:
=C2=A0 =C2=A01) generate a transition function you would= like
=C2=A0 =C2=A02= ) compile it into a script covenant
=C2=A0 =C2=A03) request the transition/txn you want t= o have happen
=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 4) produce a satisifaction of the script covenant for that transaction
=C2=A0 =C2=A05) prove the transition fun= ction *is* what you wanted/secure
Quantifying how hard X is for a given proposal is a good idea.
You can prototype covenants with federati= ons in Sapio pretty easily... more people should try this!

5) = General discuss
People suck at nam= ing things... give things more unique names for protocols!
Jeremy will name something the Hot Tub Coin Machi= ne
Some discussion=C2=A0on forking, if theres a= ny kind of consensus forming, doing things like https://lis= ts.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2021-April/018833.html
How much does a shot-on-goal cost / unforced= errors of not making an activating client available precluding being able = to activate
luke-jr: never ST; ST is a reason enough to oppose CTV
ja= mesob: <javascript> OP_DOTHETHING

best,

Jeremy

--0000000000008ae2a805d9be4bd7--