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Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2014 12:19:23 -0400
Message-ID: <CAB+qUq6iZovMftT+cLbQ63UN=QEmFwGsmUUyWiivSRrMaaDVZg@mail.gmail.com>
From: Chris Pacia <ctpacia@gmail.com>
To: Alan Reiner <etotheipi@gmail.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c2c104f9dd9304f77bbeb2
Cc: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] "bits": Unit of account
Precedence: list

--001a11c2c104f9dd9304f77bbeb2
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

The term bit is really only overloaded for those who are techy. 95% of the
population never uses the term bit in their daily lives and I doubt most
could even name one use of the term.
Plus bit used to be a unit of money way back when, so this is kind of
reclaiming it. I think it's a great fit.
On Apr 20, 2014 11:52 AM, "Alan Reiner" <etotheipi@gmail.com> wrote:

>  I've been a staunch supporter of "microbitcoin" and would like to do
> anything I can to make sure that we jump directly to it if we're going to
> promote changing the default units.  And I'm happy to integrate it into
> Armory as a default (with appropriate explanations and settings/options).
> I'm not so convinced about the "bits" name though -- I do like it, but I do
> also think that word is too overloaded.  Though, I think we could get away
> with it.
>
> (Sadly, I still use "microbes" occasionally (as in *microb*itcoin) when
> I'm talking to coworkers, because it slips off the tongue and is actually a
> good combination of brevity and self-explanatory -- it just doesn't instill
> the right visuals...)
>
> We started integrating alternative units into Armory.  But, of course,
> there were a few more loose ends than I expected, which will require some
> work.   We want to put it in but not necessarily change the default right
> away.  I'd *prefer* we get some commitments from some other wallet
> developers, so we can make a unified push for it.  I'm happy to lead that
> and make it default as long as I'm not the only one in the world doing it.
>
> -Alan
>
>
>
> On 04/20/2014 11:05 AM, Tamas Blummer wrote:
>
> Here is an earlier reference to bits:
>
>
> https://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development%40lists.sourceforge.net/msg04248.html<https://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg04248.html>
>
>  I forgot that Alan Reiner was also supporting a unit equals to bits :
>
>
> https://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development%40lists.sourceforge.net/msg04264.html<https://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg04264.html>
>
>  and here the earlier going back to March 2013 and a poll at that time
> pushing for XBT being 1 bit
>
>
> https://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development%40lists.sourceforge.net/msg04256.html<https://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg04256.html>
>
>  Regards,
>
> Tamas Blummer
> http://bitsofproof.com
>
>  On 20.04.2014, at 16:53, Pieter Wuille <pieter.wuille@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I told him specifically to bring it here (on a pull request for
> Bitcoin Core), as there is no point in making such convention changes
> to just one client.
>
> I wasn't aware of any discussion about the "bits" proposal here before.
>
> On Sun, Apr 20, 2014 at 4:28 PM, Tamas Blummer <tamas@bitsofproof.com>
> wrote:
>
> People on this list are mostly engineers who have no problem dealing with
> magnitudes and have rather limited empathy for people who have a problem
> with them.
> They also tend to think, that because they invented money 2.0 they would
> not
> need to care of finance's or people's current customs.
>
> The importance of their decisions in these questions will fade as people
> already use wallets other than the core.
>
> Bring this particular discussion elsewhere, to the wallet developer.
>
> BTW the topic was discussed here several times, you have my support and
> Jeff
> Garzik's.
>
> Regards,
>
> Tamas Blummer
> http://bitsofproof.com
>
> On 20.04.2014, at 15:15, Rob Golding <rob.golding@astutium.com><rob.golding@astutium.com>wrote:
>
> The average person is not going to be confident that the prefix they
> are using is the correct one,
>
>
> The use of any 'prefix' is one of choice and entirely unnecessary, and
> there
> are already established 'divisions' in u/mBTC for those that feel they need
> to use such things.
>
> people WILL send 1000x more or less than
> intended if we go down this road,
>
>
> Exceptionally unlikely - I deal every day with currencies with 0, 2 and 3
> dp's in amount ranging from 'under 1 whole unit' to tens of thousands - Not
> once in 20 years has anyone ever 'sent' more or less than intended - oh,
> they've 'intended' to underpay just fine, but never *unintended*.
>
> I propose that users are offered a preference to denominate the
> Bitcoin currency in a unit called a bit. Where one bitcoin (BTC)
> equals one million bits (bits) and one bit equals 100 satoshis.
>
>
> I propose that for people unable to understand what a bitcoin is, they can
> just use satoshi's and drop this entire proposal.
>
> Rob
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their
> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
> this first edition is now available. Download your free book today!
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their
> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
> this first edition is now available. Download your free book today!
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their
> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
> this first edition is now available. Download your free book today!http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing listBitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.nethttps://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their
> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
> this first edition is now available. Download your free book today!
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
>

--001a11c2c104f9dd9304f77bbeb2
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<p dir=3D"ltr">The term bit is really only overloaded for those who are tec=
hy. 95% of the population never uses the term bit in their daily lives and =
I doubt most could even name one use of the term. <br>
Plus bit used to be a unit of money way back when, so this is kind of recla=
iming it. I think it&#39;s a great fit.</p>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Apr 20, 2014 11:52 AM, &quot;Alan Reiner&quot=
; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:etotheipi@gmail.com">etotheipi@gmail.com</a>&gt; wr=
ote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"mar=
gin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">

 =20
   =20
 =20
  <div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" text=3D"#000000">
    I&#39;ve been a staunch supporter of &quot;microbitcoin&quot; and would=
 like to do
    anything I can to make sure that we jump directly to it if we&#39;re
    going to promote changing the default units.=C2=A0 And I&#39;m happy to
    integrate it into Armory as a default (with appropriate explanations
    and settings/options).=C2=A0 I&#39;m not so convinced about the &quot;b=
its&quot; name
    though -- I do like it, but I do also think that word is too
    overloaded.=C2=A0 Though, I think we could get away with it.=C2=A0 <br>
    <br>
    (Sadly, I still use &quot;microbes&quot; occasionally (as in <b>microb<=
/b>itcoin)
    when I&#39;m talking to coworkers, because it slips off the tongue and
    is actually a good combination of brevity and self-explanatory -- it
    just doesn&#39;t instill the right visuals...)<br>
    <br>
    We started integrating alternative units into Armory.=C2=A0 But, of
    course, there were a few more loose ends than I expected, which will
    require some work.=C2=A0=C2=A0 We want to put it in but not necessarily=
 change
    the default right away.=C2=A0 I&#39;d <i>prefer</i> we get some commitm=
ents
    from some other wallet developers, so we can make a unified push for
    it.=C2=A0 I&#39;m happy to lead that and make it default as long as I&#=
39;m not
    the only one in the world doing it.<br>
    <br>
    -Alan<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <div>On 04/20/2014 11:05 AM, Tamas Blummer
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite">
     =20
      <div>Here is an earlier reference to bits:</div>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div><a href=3D"https://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@list=
s.sourceforge.net/msg04248.html" target=3D"_blank">https://www.mail-archive=
.com/bitcoin-development%40lists.sourceforge.net/msg04248.html</a></div>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>I forgot that Alan Reiner was
        also supporting a unit equals to bits :</div>
      <div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div><a href=3D"https://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@li=
sts.sourceforge.net/msg04264.html" target=3D"_blank">https://www.mail-archi=
ve.com/bitcoin-development%40lists.sourceforge.net/msg04264.html</a></div>

        <div><br>
        </div>
      </div>
      <div>and here the earlier going back
        to March 2013 and a poll at that time pushing for XBT being 1
        bit</div>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div><a href=3D"https://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@list=
s.sourceforge.net/msg04256.html" target=3D"_blank">https://www.mail-archive=
.com/bitcoin-development%40lists.sourceforge.net/msg04256.html</a></div>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div><span style=3D"text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font-varian=
t:normal;text-align:-webkit-auto;font-style:normal;display:inline!important=
;font-weight:normal;float:none;line-height:normal;text-transform:none;font-=
size:12px;white-space:normal;font-family:Helvetica;word-spacing:0px">Regard=
s,</span><br style=3D"text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font-variant:no=
rmal;text-align:-webkit-auto;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;line-heig=
ht:normal;text-transform:none;font-size:12px;white-space:normal;font-family=
:Helvetica;word-spacing:0px">

        <br style=3D"text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font-variant:nor=
mal;text-align:-webkit-auto;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;line-heigh=
t:normal;text-transform:none;font-size:12px;white-space:normal;font-family:=
Helvetica;word-spacing:0px">

        <span style=3D"text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font-variant:n=
ormal;text-align:-webkit-auto;font-style:normal;display:inline!important;fo=
nt-weight:normal;float:none;line-height:normal;text-transform:none;font-siz=
e:12px;white-space:normal;font-family:Helvetica;word-spacing:0px">Tamas Blu=
mmer</span><span style=3D"text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font-varian=
t:normal;text-align:start;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;line-height:=
normal;text-transform:none;font-size:12px;white-space:normal;font-family:He=
lvetica;word-spacing:0px"><br style=3D"text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:norma=
l;font-variant:normal;text-align:-webkit-auto;font-style:normal;font-weight=
:normal;line-height:normal;text-transform:none;font-size:12px;white-space:n=
ormal;font-family:Helvetica;word-spacing:0px">

          <span style=3D"text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font-variant=
:normal;text-align:-webkit-auto;font-style:normal;display:inline!important;=
font-weight:normal;float:none;line-height:normal;text-transform:none;font-s=
ize:12px;white-space:normal;font-family:Helvetica;word-spacing:0px"><a href=
=3D"http://bitsofproof.com" target=3D"_blank">http://bitsofproof.com</a></s=
pan>
        </span></div>
      <br>
      <div>
        <div>On 20.04.2014, at 16:53, Pieter Wuille &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:p=
ieter.wuille@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">pieter.wuille@gmail.com</a>&gt;
          wrote:</div>
        <br>
        <blockquote type=3D"cite">I told him specifically to bring it here
          (on a pull request for<br>
          Bitcoin Core), as there is no point in making such convention
          changes<br>
          to just one client.<br>
          <br>
          I wasn&#39;t aware of any discussion about the &quot;bits&quot; p=
roposal
          here before.<br>
          <br>
          On Sun, Apr 20, 2014 at 4:28 PM, Tamas Blummer &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:tamas@bitsofproof.com" target=3D"_blank">tamas@bitsofproof.com</a>&gt;
          wrote:<br>
          <blockquote type=3D"cite">People on this list are mostly
            engineers who have no problem dealing with<br>
            magnitudes and have rather limited empathy for people who
            have a problem<br>
            with them.<br>
            They also tend to think, that because they invented money
            2.0 they would not<br>
            need to care of finance&#39;s or people&#39;s current customs.<=
br>
            <br>
            The importance of their decisions in these questions will
            fade as people<br>
            already use wallets other than the core.<br>
            <br>
            Bring this particular discussion elsewhere, to the wallet
            developer.<br>
            <br>
            BTW the topic was discussed here several times, you have my
            support and Jeff<br>
            Garzik&#39;s.<br>
            <br>
            Regards,<br>
            <br>
            Tamas Blummer<br>
            <a href=3D"http://bitsofproof.com" target=3D"_blank">http://bit=
sofproof.com</a><br>
            <br>
            On 20.04.2014, at 15:15, Rob Golding
            <a href=3D"mailto:rob.golding@astutium.com" target=3D"_blank">&=
lt;rob.golding@astutium.com&gt;</a> wrote:<br>
            <br>
            The average person is not going to be confident that the
            prefix they<br>
            are using is the correct one,<br>
            <br>
            <br>
            The use of any &#39;prefix&#39; is one of choice and entirely
            unnecessary, and there<br>
            are already established &#39;divisions&#39; in u/mBTC for those=
 that
            feel they need<br>
            to use such things.<br>
            <br>
            people WILL send 1000x more or less than<br>
            intended if we go down this road,<br>
            <br>
            <br>
            Exceptionally unlikely - I deal every day with currencies
            with 0, 2 and 3<br>
            dp&#39;s in amount ranging from &#39;under 1 whole unit&#39; to=
 tens of
            thousands - Not<br>
            once in 20 years has anyone ever &#39;sent&#39; more or less th=
an
            intended - oh,<br>
            they&#39;ve &#39;intended&#39; to underpay just fine, but never
            *unintended*.<br>
            <br>
            I propose that users are offered a preference to denominate
            the<br>
            Bitcoin currency in a unit called a bit. Where one bitcoin
            (BTC)<br>
            equals one million bits (bits) and one bit equals 100
            satoshis.<br>
            <br>
            <br>
            I propose that for people unable to understand what a
            bitcoin is, they can<br>
            just use satoshi&#39;s and drop this entire proposal.<br>
            <br>
            Rob<br>
            <br>
            <br>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
---<br>
            Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O&#39;Reilly Book<br>
            &quot;Graph Databases&quot; is the definitive new guide to grap=
h
            databases and their<br>
            applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the
            field,<br>
            this first edition is now available. Download your free book
            today!<br>
            <a href=3D"http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech" target=3D"_blank">http:=
//p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech</a><br>
            _______________________________________________<br>
            Bitcoin-development mailing list<br>
            <a href=3D"mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development=
" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-de=
velopment</a><br>
            <br>
            <br>
            <br>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
---<br>
            Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O&#39;Reilly Book<br>
            &quot;Graph Databases&quot; is the definitive new guide to grap=
h
            databases and their<br>
            applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the
            field,<br>
            this first edition is now available. Download your free book
            today!<br>
            <a href=3D"http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech" target=3D"_blank">http:=
//p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech</a><br>
            _______________________________________________<br>
            Bitcoin-development mailing list<br>
            <a href=3D"mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development=
" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-de=
velopment</a><br>
            <br>
          </blockquote>
          <br>
        </blockquote>
      </div>
      <br>
      <br>
      <fieldset></fieldset>
      <br>
      <pre>----------------------------------------------------------------=
--------------
Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O&#39;Reilly Book
&quot;Graph Databases&quot; is the definitive new guide to graph databases =
and their
applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
this first edition is now available. Download your free book today!
<a href=3D"http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech" target=3D"_blank">http://p.sf.net/s=
fu/NeoTech</a></pre>
      <br>
      <fieldset></fieldset>
      <br>
      <pre>_______________________________________________
Bitcoin-development mailing list
<a href=3D"mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net" target=3D"_bla=
nk">Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net</a>
<a href=3D"https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development=
" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-de=
velopment</a>
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </div>

<br>-----------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------<br>
Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O&#39;Reilly Book<br>
&quot;Graph Databases&quot; is the definitive new guide to graph databases =
and their<br>
applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,<br>
this first edition is now available. Download your free book today!<br>
<a href=3D"http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech" target=3D"_blank">http://p.sf.net/s=
fu/NeoTech</a><br>_______________________________________________<br>
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<a href=3D"mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net">Bitcoin-develo=
pment@lists.sourceforge.net</a><br>
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" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-de=
velopment</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div>

--001a11c2c104f9dd9304f77bbeb2--