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In-Reply-To: <201306061914.20006.luke@dashjr.org>
References: <201306061914.20006.luke@dashjr.org>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2013 12:59:16 -0700
Message-ID: <CAFmyj8zG7iLnwm7iUwxyOXTe3SZxAOFoZdy3=oRa2WqYbiWsHQ@mail.gmail.com>
From: "Andreas M. Antonopoulos" <andreas@rooteleven.com>
To: Luke-Jr <luke@dashjr.org>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b33ce8cc1f8ef04de81bfd5
Cc: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Proposal: soft-fork to make
 anyone-can-spend outputs unspendable for 100 blocks
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Is there any consideration given to the fact that bitcoin can operate as a
platform for many other services, if it is able to be neutral to payload,
as long as the fee is paid for the transaction size?

Unless I have misunderstood this discussion, it seems to me that this is a
bit like saying in 1990 "IP Is only for email, the majority of users want
email, we shouldn't allow video, voice or images". Ooops, there goes the
web.

Is it possible to solve this by solving the issue of provably un-spendable
outputs without foreclosing on the possibility of other types of
transaction payloads (ie, not money), that would open the possibility for a
myriad of layered apps above? For example, hashes of content that is
external to bitcoin, that people want to pay to have timestamped in the
blockchain, as provably unspendable outputs.

The social compact is to accept transaction for fee. I think it is a major
mistake to make decisions that discriminate on the content of the
transaction, saying that some uses are not appropriate. If the fee is paid
and it covers the size of the transaction, why would it matter if it is not
a payment?

I could be totally misreading this thread, too, so please allow me some
slack if I have!


On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 12:14 PM, Luke-Jr <luke@dashjr.org> wrote:

> On Saturday, June 01, 2013 7:30:36 PM Peter Todd wrote:
> > scriptPubKey: <data> OP_TRUE
> >
> > ...
> > Along with that change anyone-can-spend outputs should be make
> IsStandard()
> > so they will be relayed.
>
> Data does not belong in the blockchain. People running nodes have all
> implicitly agreed to store the blocks for financial purposes, and storing
> data
> is a violation of that social contract. Proof-of-stake may be arguably
> financial, but I'm sure there must be a way to do it without spamming
> people
> against their consent.
>
> > The alternative is sacrifices to unspendable outputs, which is very
> > undesirable compared to sending the money to miners to further
> > strengthen the security of the network.
>
> The alternative is to make other standard outputs unable to store data as
> well.
>
> Luke
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> How ServiceNow helps IT people transform IT departments:
> 1. A cloud service to automate IT design, transition and operations
> 2. Dashboards that offer high-level views of enterprise services
> 3. A single system of record for all IT processes
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/servicenow-d2d-j
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Is there any consideration given to the fact that bitcoin =
can operate as a platform for many other services, if it is able to be neut=
ral to payload, as long as the fee is paid for the transaction size?<div><b=
r>
</div><div style>Unless I have misunderstood this discussion, it seems to m=
e that this is a bit like saying in 1990 &quot;IP Is only for email, the ma=
jority of users want email, we shouldn&#39;t allow video, voice or images&q=
uot;. Ooops, there goes the web.=A0</div>
<div style><br></div><div style>Is it possible to solve this by solving the=
 issue of provably un-spendable outputs without foreclosing on the possibil=
ity of other types of transaction payloads (ie, not money), that would open=
 the possibility for a myriad of layered apps above? For example, hashes of=
 content that is external to bitcoin, that people want to pay to have times=
tamped in the blockchain, as provably unspendable outputs.</div>
<div style><br></div><div style>The social compact is to accept transaction=
 for fee. I think it is a major mistake to make decisions that discriminate=
 on the content of the transaction, saying that some uses are not appropria=
te. If the fee is paid and it covers the size of the transaction, why would=
 it matter if it is not a payment?=A0</div>
<div style><br></div><div style>I could be totally misreading this thread, =
too, so please allow me some slack if I have!</div><div style><br></div><di=
v style><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gm=
ail_quote">
On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 12:14 PM, Luke-Jr <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:luke@dashjr.org" target=3D"_blank">luke@dashjr.org</a>&gt;</span> wro=
te:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-=
left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div class=3D"im">On Saturday, June 01, 2013 7:30:36 PM Peter Todd wrote:<b=
r>
&gt; scriptPubKey: &lt;data&gt; OP_TRUE<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; ...<br>
</div><div class=3D"im">&gt; Along with that change anyone-can-spend output=
s should be make IsStandard()<br>
&gt; so they will be relayed.<br>
<br>
</div><div class=3D"im">Data does not belong in the blockchain. People runn=
ing nodes have all<br>
implicitly agreed to store the blocks for financial purposes, and storing d=
ata<br>
is a violation of that social contract. Proof-of-stake may be arguably<br>
financial, but I&#39;m sure there must be a way to do it without spamming p=
eople<br>
against their consent.<br>
<br>
</div><div class=3D"im">&gt; The alternative is sacrifices to unspendable o=
utputs, which is very<br>
&gt; undesirable compared to sending the money to miners to further<br>
&gt; strengthen the security of the network.<br>
<br>
</div>The alternative is to make other standard outputs unable to store dat=
a as<br>
well.<br>
<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
Luke<br>
</font></span><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><br>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
---<br>
How ServiceNow helps IT people transform IT departments:<br>
1. A cloud service to automate IT design, transition and operations<br>
2. Dashboards that offer high-level views of enterprise services<br>
3. A single system of record for all IT processes<br>
<a href=3D"http://p.sf.net/sfu/servicenow-d2d-j" target=3D"_blank">http://p=
.sf.net/sfu/servicenow-d2d-j</a><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Bitcoin-development mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net">Bitcoin-develo=
pment@lists.sourceforge.net</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development=
" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-de=
velopment</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

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