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From: Keagan McClelland <keagan.mcclelland@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2024 20:28:29 -0600
Message-ID: <CALeFGL0ddgS=qCsunoGwD2j6By4_bQpndX-oKn_wAQse3o+Sxg@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] OP_KEEPCHANGE - mitigating dust outputs
To: james@kwiqly.com
Cc: Pieter Wuille <bitcoin-dev@wuille.net>, 
	Bitcoin Development Mailing List <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
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I think a number of wallets will refuse to create dust outputs and will
offer the would-be dust as extra fees if there would be dust. This is
ultimately up to wallet policy and there are some UX quirks to be worked
out but this is entirely in the application domain, as opposed to at the
protocol layer.

Keagan

On Thu, Sep 26, 2024 at 3:46=E2=80=AFAM James Ferguson <jamesfergusonch@gma=
il.com>
wrote:

> Pieter
>
> - Thank you, very helpful explanation
>
>  So  suggestion sucks -  I withdraw it to avoid wasting others time !
>
> However,  it seems dust benefits could be achieved simply by wallets
> proposing dust roundup to recipient when creating the transaction rather
> than providing a change output - It seems wallet providers could automate
> this small benefit to be adopted with no protocol change.
>
> So it fair to describe dust as a "tragedy of the commons" (wallets leave
> value at small cost but no benefit) that bloats the time chain ?
>
> Thanks for your assistance - I want to get into this but need to pick a
> niche to grow initial understanding. - Suggestions welcome
>
> Cheers, James
>
>
>
> On Thu, 26 Sept 2024 at 03:23, Pieter Wuille <bitcoin-dev@wuille.net>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi James,
>>
>> I believe you're imagining that Bitcoin works very differently from how
>> it actually does. Comments below inline.
>>
>> On Wednesday, September 25th, 2024 at 8:44 PM, James Ferguson <
>> jamesfergusonch@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Introduction of provisionally named "OP_KEEPCHANGE" allows small residua=
l
>> UTXO (change) to be automatically credited to the primary recipient=E2=
=80=99s
>> address.
>>
>>
>> Bitcoin doesn't have a concept of address balances at the protocol level=
,
>> or even addresses at all, let alone a "primary recipient address". Balan=
ces
>> you see in wallets and blockchain explorers simply report the sum of the
>> values of UTXOs under control of a given address, but this is a local
>> interpretation made by that software; the protocol itself does not know =
or
>> care about these things.
>>
>> The way to "credit an address" in Bitcoin is literally to create a UTXO
>> locked with (the script corresponding to) the address in question, so
>> barring an extremely invasive overhaul of how the entire protocol works,
>> there isn't actually any UTXO set size benefit to this proposal - change
>> UTXOs would still need to be created. In addition, if your proposal
>> requires revealing what the recipient of a payment is (as "crediting
>> primary recipient" implies), it would necessarily also undo the primary
>> privacy benefit of having a UTXO model in the first place: today, one
>> cannot generally tell which output of a transaction is the payee, and th=
is
>> is by design.
>>
>> Of course, a hypothetical proposal could change anything about Bitcoin's
>> design if it were to have enough support. If the Bitcoin ecosystem reall=
y
>> wanted an address balance model, nothing prevents the introduction of th=
at.
>> In that case, there is no point to have UTXOs, or change, at all. Just m=
ake
>> transaction deduct some address balances, and credit some others directl=
y.
>> This removes many of the issues you seem to want to address much more
>> directly (including coin selection, dust accumulation, UTXO set growth t=
o
>> some extent, and many more, while adding other complications in other
>> places, of course). However, it would also massively hurt privacy, as th=
ere
>> would be an on-chain cost to creating new addresses/balances, incentiviz=
ing
>> keeping one's funds in just one. The current UTXO model does not care ab=
out
>> the distinction between payments and change and this is very much
>> desirable: sending your change to a new change address with pristine
>> history costs exactly the same as sending it back to the address the spe=
nd
>> coins were assigned to.
>>
>> b) Enhanced Privacy: .
>> This provides a slight improvement in transaction privacy by obfuscating
>> the typical patterns used to identify change outputs.
>>
>>
>> But it does so at the cost of incentivizing not transitioning to a new
>> address on every transaction, a huge privacy leak.
>>
>> - When used in a transaction, `OP_KEEPCHANGE` signals that any excess
>> change be added to the primary output instead of generating a separate
>> change output.
>>
>>
>> Change does not exist at the protocol level. It is just an output like
>> any normal payment output, and indistinguishable from it. The protocol a=
lso
>> has no knowledge of excess - that is a concept purely local to the sende=
r
>> wallet. It *chooses*=E2=80=8B to add an output back to itself, to balanc=
e the
>> amounts in the inputs with the amounts in the outputs (minus fee). At th=
e
>> very least your proposal would require a way to signal how much to send
>> back, and to where (remember that multiple parties can cooperate to join=
tly
>> construct a single transaction!). At this point you're not far off from
>> just having another output...
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> --
>> Pieter
>>
>> --
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> .
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">I think a number of wallets will refuse to create dust out=
puts and will offer the would-be dust as extra fees if there would be dust.=
 This is ultimately up to wallet policy and there are some UX quirks to be =
worked out but this is entirely in the application domain, as opposed to at=
 the protocol layer.<div><br></div><div>Keagan</div></div><br><div class=3D=
"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Sep 26, 2024 at=
 3:46=E2=80=AFAM James Ferguson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jamesfergusonch@gmail=
.com">jamesfergusonch@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=
b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_defau=
lt" style=3D"font-size:small">Pieter=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default=
" style=3D"font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D=
"font-size:small">- Thank you, very helpful explanation=C2=A0</div><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmai=
l_default" style=3D"font-size:small">=C2=A0So=C2=A0 suggestion sucks -=C2=
=A0 I withdraw it to avoid wasting others time !</div><div class=3D"gmail_d=
efault" style=3D"font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" st=
yle=3D"font-size:small">However,=C2=A0 it seems dust benefits=C2=A0could be=
 achieved simply by wallets proposing dust roundup to recipient=C2=A0when c=
reating the transaction rather than providing=C2=A0a change output - It see=
ms wallet providers could automate this small benefit to be adopted with no=
 protocol=C2=A0change.</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size=
:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small">So=
 it fair to describe dust as a &quot;tragedy of the commons&quot; (wallets =
leave value at small cost but=C2=A0no benefit) that bloats the time chain ?=
</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small"><br></div><div=
 class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small">Thanks for your assistan=
ce - I want to get into this but need to pick a niche to grow initial under=
standing. - Suggestions welcome</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"=
font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:=
small">Cheers, James</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:s=
mall"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small"><br>=
</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_=
attr">On Thu, 26 Sept 2024 at 03:23, Pieter Wuille &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bi=
tcoin-dev@wuille.net" target=3D"_blank">bitcoin-dev@wuille.net</a>&gt; wrot=
e:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0=
.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D=
"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-co=
lor:rgb(255,255,255)">Hi James,</div><div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-s=
erif;font-size:14px;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><br=
></div><div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px;color:rgb(=
0,0,0);background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">I believe you&#39;re imagining th=
at Bitcoin works very differently from how it actually does. Comments below=
 inline.<br></div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px">
    <div>
       =20
            </div>
   =20
            <div>
       =20
            </div>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px"><br></div><div>
        On Wednesday, September 25th, 2024 at 8:44 PM, James Ferguson &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:jamesfergusonch@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">jamesferguson=
ch@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><div><br></div><div>
        <blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>Introduction of provisionally named =
 &quot;OP_KEEPCHANGE&quot; allows small residual UTXO (change) to be automa=
tically credited to the primary recipient=E2=80=99s address.</div></blockqu=
ote><div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px;color:rgb(0,0=
,0);background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:=
Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:rgb(255,2=
55,255)">Bitcoin doesn&#39;t have a concept of address balances at the prot=
ocol level, or even addresses at all, let alone a &quot;primary recipient a=
ddress&quot;. Balances you see in wallets and blockchain explorers simply r=
eport the sum of the values of UTXOs under control of a given address, but =
this is a local interpretation made by that software; the protocol itself d=
oes not know or care about these things.</div><div style=3D"font-family:Ari=
al,sans-serif;font-size:14px;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:rgb(255,255,=
255)"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px;c=
olor:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">The way to &quot;credit =
an address&quot; in Bitcoin is literally to create a UTXO locked with (the =
script corresponding to) the address in question, so barring an extremely i=
nvasive overhaul of how the entire protocol works, there isn&#39;t actually=
 any UTXO set size benefit to this proposal - change UTXOs would still need=
 to be created. In addition, if your proposal requires revealing what the r=
ecipient of a payment is (as &quot;crediting primary recipient&quot; implie=
s), it would necessarily also undo the primary privacy benefit of having a =
UTXO model in the first place: today, one cannot generally tell which outpu=
t of a transaction is the payee, and this is by design.<br></div><div style=
=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px;color:rgb(0,0,0);background=
-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-ser=
if;font-size:14px;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">Of co=
urse, a hypothetical proposal could change anything about Bitcoin&#39;s des=
ign if it were to have enough support. If the Bitcoin ecosystem really want=
ed an address balance model, nothing prevents the introduction of that. In =
that case, there is no point to have UTXOs, or change, at all. Just make tr=
ansaction deduct some address balances, and credit some others directly. Th=
is removes many of the issues you seem to want to address much more directl=
y (including coin selection, dust accumulation, UTXO set growth to some ext=
ent, and many more, while adding other complications in other places, of co=
urse). However, it would also massively hurt privacy, as there would be an =
on-chain cost to creating new addresses/balances, incentivizing keeping one=
&#39;s funds in just one. The current UTXO model does not care about the di=
stinction between payments and change and this is very much desirable: send=
ing your change to a new change address with pristine history costs exactly=
 the same as sending it back to the address the spend coins were assigned t=
o.<br></div><div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px;color=
:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><br></div><blockquote type=
=3D"cite"><div>b) Enhanced Privacy: . <br></div><div>This provides a slight=
 improvement in transaction privacy by obfuscating the typical patterns use=
d to identify change outputs.</div></blockquote><div style=3D"font-family:A=
rial,sans-serif;font-size:14px;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:rgb(255,25=
5,255)"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px=
;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">But it does so at the =
cost of incentivizing not transitioning to a new address on every transacti=
on, a huge privacy leak.</div><div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;fo=
nt-size:14px;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><br></div>=
<blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>- When used in a transaction, `OP_KEEPCHANGE=
` signals that any excess change be added to the primary output instead of =
generating a separate change output.</div></blockquote><div style=3D"font-f=
amily:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:rgb=
(255,255,255)"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-si=
ze:14px;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">Change does not=
 exist at the protocol level. It is just an output like any normal payment =
output, and indistinguishable from it. The protocol also has no knowledge o=
f excess - that is a concept purely local to the sender wallet. It <b>choos=
es</b>=E2=80=8B to add an output back to itself, to balance the amounts in =
the inputs with the amounts in the outputs (minus fee). At the very least y=
our proposal would require a way to signal how much to send back, and to wh=
ere (remember that multiple parties can cooperate to jointly construct a si=
ngle transaction!). At this point you&#39;re not far off from just having a=
nother output...</div></div><div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font=
-size:14px;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><br></div><d=
iv style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px;color:rgb(0,0,0);ba=
ckground-color:rgb(255,255,255)">Cheers,</div><div style=3D"font-family:Ari=
al,sans-serif;font-size:14px;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:rgb(255,255,=
255)"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px;c=
olor:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">-- <br></div><div style=
=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px;color:rgb(0,0,0);background=
-color:rgb(255,255,255)">Pieter</div><div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-s=
erif;font-size:14px;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><br=
></div><div>
    </div></blockquote></div>

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</blockquote></div>

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