Received: from sog-mx-2.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.192]
	helo=mx.sourceforge.net)
	by sfs-ml-3.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76)
	(envelope-from <pete@petertodd.org>) id 1WNmJy-0001yG-Tt
	for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net;
	Wed, 12 Mar 2014 16:47:58 +0000
Received-SPF: pass (sog-mx-2.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com: domain of petertodd.org
	designates 62.13.148.154 as permitted sender)
	client-ip=62.13.148.154; envelope-from=pete@petertodd.org;
	helo=outmail148154.authsmtp.co.uk; 
Received: from outmail148154.authsmtp.co.uk ([62.13.148.154])
	by sog-mx-2.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76)
	id 1WNmJx-00081r-Pn for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net;
	Wed, 12 Mar 2014 16:47:58 +0000
Received: from mail-c235.authsmtp.com (mail-c235.authsmtp.com [62.13.128.235])
	by punt15.authsmtp.com (8.14.2/8.14.2/) with ESMTP id s2CGloRS027628;
	Wed, 12 Mar 2014 16:47:50 GMT
Received: from savin (76-10-178-109.dsl.teksavvy.com [76.10.178.109])
	(authenticated bits=128)
	by mail.authsmtp.com (8.14.2/8.14.2/) with ESMTP id s2CGlkK5092961
	(version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO);
	Wed, 12 Mar 2014 16:47:48 GMT
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2014 12:47:50 -0400
From: Peter Todd <pete@petertodd.org>
To: Mike Hearn <mike@plan99.net>
Message-ID: <20140312164750.GA8199@savin>
References: <CABsx9T0Lvg84qFVRbc7Ef4vZEQj9eO7Jhup5PTRLLeuJFvXi-w@mail.gmail.com>
	<4fca6b510dd57d2f92affeb988d2ee5d.squirrel@fulvetta.riseup.net>
	<531FAA55.2020108@xeno-genesis.com> <531FC808.7060709@gmail.com>
	<9A6499BC-E546-45CC-A7EF-5182FC86052D@gmail.com>
	<53202D51.8010008@plan99.net>
	<CAJHLa0OuXyEz6gcq_dQKmGjJQf3cJjFyzjb38RCB3E6-wMLJ0g@mail.gmail.com>
	<CANEZrP2Lr0Do8dPXAvRPkZU0Hk4UBt=CjgXSSKbopawoq8NjgA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJHLa0OG4y_+7=z8_nuejHSynw+2CU9fzVGhAet3g0d3BoGCpg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CANEZrP02L2GsPSKFTncwvn95FpEz-LFysro4-Z+f25eRcENL8w@mail.gmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256;
	protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="KsGdsel6WgEHnImy"
Content-Disposition: inline
In-Reply-To: <CANEZrP02L2GsPSKFTncwvn95FpEz-LFysro4-Z+f25eRcENL8w@mail.gmail.com>
User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15)
X-Server-Quench: 0bbfd96f-aa06-11e3-b802-002590a15da7
X-AuthReport-Spam: If SPAM / abuse - report it at:
	http://www.authsmtp.com/abuse
X-AuthRoute: OCd2Yg0TA1ZNQRgX IjsJECJaVQIpKltL GxAVKBZePFsRUQkR
	aQdMdwAUFVQGAgsB AmIbWlJeVFp7XWo7 bAxPbAVDY01GQQRq
	WVdMSlVNFUsrA292 WkVlVxl7dQxAeTBx ZkdmVj5bDhYsIU97
	FFMFRG0AeGZhPWMC AkhYdR5UcAFPdx8U a1UrBXRDAzANdhES
	HhM4ODE3eDlSNilR RRkIIFQOdA4uAzog RgsDEjNnBUQUQig1
	M1Q+MFkAG00WNhJa 
X-Authentic-SMTP: 61633532353630.1023:706
X-AuthFastPath: 0 (Was 255)
X-AuthSMTP-Origin: 76.10.178.109/587
X-AuthVirus-Status: No virus detected - but ensure you scan with your own
	anti-virus system.
X-Spam-Score: -1.5 (-)
X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net.
	See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details.
	-1.5 SPF_CHECK_PASS SPF reports sender host as permitted sender for
	sender-domain
	-0.0 SPF_PASS               SPF: sender matches SPF record
X-Headers-End: 1WNmJx-00081r-Pn
Cc: Bitcoin Dev <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>
Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Multisign payment protocol?
X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9
Precedence: list
List-Id: <bitcoin-development.lists.sourceforge.net>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development>,
	<mailto:bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.net?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_name=bitcoin-development>
List-Post: <mailto:bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>
List-Help: <mailto:bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.net?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development>,
	<mailto:bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.net?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2014 16:47:59 -0000


--KsGdsel6WgEHnImy
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Wed, Mar 12, 2014 at 05:41:33PM +0100, Mike Hearn wrote:
> >
> > Partially signed and multisig transactions within bitcoind go through
> > the raw transaction API, which does absolutely nothing if the sig
> > pushes the TX to a higher fee level.
>=20
>=20
> Well, we'll have to make sure this is carefully and loudly documented in
> the new developer part of the website that's being worked on. Because this
> seems like a recipe for people writing flaky apps. In practice it would
> seem like you need to implement the fee loop in your own app:
>=20
> 1) Create tx with an estimated fee level
> 2) Add signatures
> 3) Submit. If REJECT for too low fees, increment, go to 1 and try again.

Why?

It's the raw transaction API and Bitcoin Core wallet. What should be
carefully and loudly documented is the simple advice "Don't use to hold
customer funds; use Bitcoinj or something instead." followed by a
warning that SPV isn't secure enough for a business unless you run your
own full node.

The raw transaction API has no support to handle fees at all.

--=20
'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org
00000000000000008aebcc3db3f73302ba290392eb783c509c5c7c4dd3971136

--KsGdsel6WgEHnImy
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc"
Content-Description: Digital signature

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.14 (GNU/Linux)
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==
=nllj
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--KsGdsel6WgEHnImy--