Message-ID: <55788924.6090008@AndySchroder.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2015 14:59:48 -0400
From: Andy Schroder <info@AndySchroder.com>
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To: s7r@sky-ip.org, "Wladimir J. van der Laan" <laanwj@gmail.com>, 
	xor <xor@freenetproject.org>
References: <1943127.DBnVxmfOIh@1337h4x0r>	<20150610093556.GA11409@amethyst.visucore.com>
	<557869F9.8030109@AndySchroder.com> <557883A7.7030906@sky-ip.org>
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Cc: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Is SourceForge still trustworthy enough
 to host this list?
Precedence: list

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Hello,

A couple of motivations for a mailing list switch:

 1. Sometimes the mailing list delays delivery for 10 minutes to several
    days.
 2. There are usually lots of ads at the footer of the messages. Really
    confuses new readers (for me at least), and seems like it really
    pollutes such a historical dialog that may be referenced long into
    the future. How would it be if the 10 Commandments, Magna Carta,
    Bill of Rights, The Sermon on the Mount, or The Gettysburg Address
    had ads intertwined within them?
 3. Don't think HTML messages are allowed.
 4. Seems like digital signatures are always broken on messages because
    the list server slightly modifies them (?), so my e-mail client
    doesn't verify them all.


Andy Schroder

On 06/10/2015 02:36 PM, s7r wrote:
> The mail list is public, so it's not like the data on it is somehow
> sensitive. Sourcefoge is fine, it has a nice web UI where you can brows=
e
> the message and sort/order them as you want, etc.
>
> Why would you want to move to a paid solution? And why would you want
> users to have to pay per message? This is the worst idea ever from my
> point of view. We want to encourage people to join the community, run
> full nodes, ask questions, come with solutions, ideas for improvements
> and so on. Everyone should read and write and contribute as much as
> possible with ideas in debates. You never know who can have bright idea=
s
> in some contexts.
>
> Bottom line is so far sourceforge handles the mail lists just fine. I
> don't see a single advantage another mail list provider / system could
> offer, except some headache and extra work for migration. The software
> distribution via sourcefoge was cancelled for obvious reasons which I
> fully understand and agree to, but it has nothing to do with the mail
> lists. We have way more important things to brainstorm about.
>
> On 6/10/2015 7:46 PM, Andy Schroder wrote:
>> Regarding changing the e-mail list provider. Is anyone interested in
>> sponsoring it? There are non-free options, but it may be difficult to
>> always ensure the fee is being paid to the provider. I think finding a=
n
>> agreeable free solution may have been the issue before? I've also
>> thought of trying to make a pay per message or byte solution (and this=

>> cost could be dynamic based upon the number of current mailing list
>> subscribers). This could solve the who pays problem (the sender pays),=

>> as well as motivate people to be more concise and clear with their
>> messages, and at the same time limit spam.
>>
>>
>>
>> Any thoughts?
>>
>> Andy Schroder
>>
>> On 06/10/2015 05:35 AM, Wladimir J. van der Laan wrote:
>>> On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 10:25:12AM +0200, xor wrote:
>>>> http://www.howtogeek.com/218764/warning-don%E2%80%99t-download-softw=
are-from-sourceforge-if-you-can-help-it/
>>> All our downloads (even old ones) have recently been deleted from sou=
rceforge, for this reason. They haven't been mentioned in Bitcon Core rel=
ease announcements for a long time.
>>>
>>> No opinion on the mailing list. Though I think it's less urgent. The =
issue of moving the mailinglist has come up before a few times and people=
 can't agree where to move to.
>>>
>>> Wladimir
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------=
---------
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------=
--------
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>>
>
>


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    <meta content=3D"text/html; charset=3DISO-8859-1"
      http-equiv=3D"Content-Type">
  </head>
  <body bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" text=3D"#000000">
    <div class=3D"moz-cite-prefix">Hello,<br>
      <br>
      A couple of motivations for a mailing list switch:<br>
      <ol>
        <li>Sometimes the mailing list delays delivery for 10 minutes to
          several days.</li>
        <li>There are usually lots of ads at the footer of the messages.
          Really confuses new readers (for me at least), and seems like
          it really pollutes such a historical dialog that may be
          referenced long into the future. How would it be if the 10
          Commandments, Magna Carta, Bill of Rights, The Sermon on the
          Mount, or The Gettysburg Address had ads intertwined within
          them?<br>
        </li>
        <li>Don't think HTML messages are allowed.</li>
        <li>Seems like digital signatures are always broken on messages
          because the list server slightly modifies them (?), so my
          e-mail client doesn't verify them all.<br>
        </li>
      </ol>
      <br>
      <br>
      <pre class=3D"moz-signature" cols=3D"72">Andy Schroder</pre>
      On 06/10/2015 02:36 PM, s7r wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote cite=3D"mid:557883A7.7030906@sky-ip.org" type=3D"cite">
      <pre wrap=3D"">The mail list is public, so it's not like the data o=
n it is somehow
sensitive. Sourcefoge is fine, it has a nice web UI where you can browse
the message and sort/order them as you want, etc.

Why would you want to move to a paid solution? And why would you want
users to have to pay per message? This is the worst idea ever from my
point of view. We want to encourage people to join the community, run
full nodes, ask questions, come with solutions, ideas for improvements
and so on. Everyone should read and write and contribute as much as
possible with ideas in debates. You never know who can have bright ideas
in some contexts.

Bottom line is so far sourceforge handles the mail lists just fine. I
don't see a single advantage another mail list provider / system could
offer, except some headache and extra work for migration. The software
distribution via sourcefoge was cancelled for obvious reasons which I
fully understand and agree to, but it has nothing to do with the mail
lists. We have way more important things to brainstorm about.

On 6/10/2015 7:46 PM, Andy Schroder wrote:
</pre>
      <blockquote type=3D"cite">
        <pre wrap=3D"">Regarding changing the e-mail list provider. Is an=
yone interested in=20
sponsoring it? There are non-free options, but it may be difficult to=20
always ensure the fee is being paid to the provider. I think finding an=20
agreeable free solution may have been the issue before? I've also=20
thought of trying to make a pay per message or byte solution (and this=20
cost could be dynamic based upon the number of current mailing list=20
subscribers). This could solve the who pays problem (the sender pays),=20
as well as motivate people to be more concise and clear with their=20
messages, and at the same time limit spam.


Any thoughts?

Andy Schroder

On 06/10/2015 05:35 AM, Wladimir J. van der Laan wrote:
</pre>
        <blockquote type=3D"cite">
          <pre wrap=3D"">On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 10:25:12AM +0200, xor wr=
ote:
</pre>
          <blockquote type=3D"cite">
            <pre wrap=3D""><a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"htt=
p://www.howtogeek.com/218764/warning-don%E2%80%99t-download-software-from=
-sourceforge-if-you-can-help-it/">http://www.howtogeek.com/218764/warning=
-don%E2%80%99t-download-software-from-sourceforge-if-you-can-help-it/</a>=

</pre>
          </blockquote>
          <pre wrap=3D"">All our downloads (even old ones) have recently =
been deleted from sourceforge, for this reason. They haven't been mention=
ed in Bitcon Core release announcements for a long time.

No opinion on the mailing list. Though I think it's less urgent. The issu=
e of moving the mailinglist has come up before a few times and people can=
't agree where to move to.

Wladimir


-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----
</pre>
        </blockquote>
        <pre wrap=3D"">

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----
_______________________________________________
Bitcoin-development mailing list
<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href=3D"mailto:Bitcoin-development@=
lists.sourceforge.net">Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net</a>
<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"https://lists.sourceforge.net/=
lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/l=
istinfo/bitcoin-development</a>

</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap=3D"">


</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
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