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From: Jameson Lopp <jameson.lopp@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2024 10:57:39 -0400
Message-ID: <CADL_X_eZ3uDU7PPh11rn2NSGwvRMjjZ3Auu6eVVQoJU78+aRxQ@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] The Future of Bitcoin Testnet
To: Luke Dashjr <luke@dashjr.org>
Cc: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com
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On Sun, Mar 31, 2024 at 10:33=E2=80=AFAM Luke Dashjr <luke@dashjr.org> wrot=
e:

> Is the difficulty reset bug actually a bug, or a feature?
>
> I haven't thought of or heard of any good reason why it's helpful to have
a dozen blocks per second flood the network for several days every time the
edge case gets hit.

> If it's a bug, couldn't we just fix it and let the blockchain reorg on it=
s
> own?
>
I believe so. Upon closer inspection I think it's actually a soft forkable
fix if all we do is restrict the special testnet minimum difficulty rule so
that it can't be triggered on the block right before a difficulty retarget.

> Signet is definitely not a replacement for testnet.
>
> Luke
>
>
> On 3/31/24 09:19, Jameson Lopp wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> I'd like to open a discussion about testnet3 to put out some feelers on
> potential changes to it. First, a few facts:
>
> 1. Testnet3 has been running for 13 years. It's on block 2.5 million
> something and the block reward is down to ~0.014 TBTC, so mining is not
> doing a great job at distributing testnet coins any more.
>
> 2. The reason the block height is insanely high is due to a rather amusin=
g
> edge case bug that causes the difficulty to regularly get reset to 1, whi=
ch
> causes a bit of havoc. If you want a deep dive into the quirk:
> https://blog.lopp.net/the-block-storms-of-bitcoins-testnet/
>
> 3. Testnet3 is being actively used for scammy airdrops; those of us who
> tend to be generous with our testnet coins are getting hounded by
> non-developers chasing cheap gains.
>
> 4. As a result, TBTC is being actively bought and sold; one could argue
> that the fundamental principle of testnet coins having no value has been
> broken.
>
> This leads me to ponder the following questions, for which I'm soliciting
> feedback.
>
> 1. Should we plan for a reset of testnet? If so, given how long it has
> been since the last reset and how many production systems will need to be
> updated, would a reset need to be done with a great deal of notice?
>
> 2. Is there interest in fixing the difficulty reset bug? It should be a
> one liner fix, and I'd argue it could be done sooner rather than later, a=
nd
> orthogonal to the network reset question. Would such a change, which woul=
d
> technically be a hard fork (but also arguably a self resolving fork due t=
o
> the difficulty dynamics) necessitate a BIP or could we just YOLO it?
>
> 3. Is all of the above a waste of time and we should instead deprecate
> testnet in favor of signet?
>
> - Jameson
> --
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> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/CADL_X_eXjbRFROuJU0b336vPVy=
5Q2RJvhcx64NSNPH-3fDCUfw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Df=
ooter>
> .
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sun, Mar 31, 2024 at 10:33=E2=80=
=AFAM Luke Dashjr &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:luke@dashjr.org">luke@dashjr.org</a=
>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px=
 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><u>=
</u>

 =20
   =20
 =20
  <div>
    <p>Is the difficulty reset bug actually a bug, or a feature?</p>
    <p></p></div></blockquote><div>I haven&#39;t thought of or heard of any=
 good reason why it&#39;s helpful to have a dozen blocks per second flood t=
he network for several days every time the edge case gets hit.=C2=A0</div><=
blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l=
eft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><p>If it&#39;s a bug,=
 couldn&#39;t we just fix it and let the blockchain
      reorg on its own?</p></div></blockquote><div>I believe so. Upon close=
r inspection I think it&#39;s actually a soft forkable fix if all we do is =
restrict the special testnet minimum difficulty rule so that it can&#39;t b=
e triggered on the block right before a difficulty retarget.=C2=A0</div><bl=
ockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-lef=
t:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div>
    <p>Signet is definitely not a replacement for testnet.</p>
    <p>Luke</p>
    <p><br>
    </p>
    <div>On 3/31/24 09:19, Jameson Lopp wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite">
      <div dir=3D"ltr">Hi all,
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>I&#39;d like to open a discussion about testnet3 to put out
          some feelers on potential changes to it. First, a few facts:</div=
>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>1. Testnet3 has been running for 13 years. It&#39;s on block
          2.5 million something and the block reward is down to ~0.014
          TBTC, so mining is not doing a great job at distributing
          testnet coins any more.</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>2. The reason the block height is insanely high is due to a
          rather amusing edge case bug that causes the difficulty to
          regularly get reset to 1, which causes a bit of havoc. If you
          want a deep dive into the quirk:=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://blog.lop=
p.net/the-block-storms-of-bitcoins-testnet/" target=3D"_blank">https://blog=
.lopp.net/the-block-storms-of-bitcoins-testnet/</a></div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>3. Testnet3 is being actively used for scammy airdrops;
          those of us who tend to be generous with our testnet coins are
          getting hounded by non-developers chasing cheap gains.</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>4. As a result, TBTC is being actively bought and sold; one
          could argue that the fundamental principle of testnet=C2=A0coins
          having no value has been broken.</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>This leads me to ponder the following questions, for which
          I&#39;m soliciting feedback.</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>1. Should we plan for a reset of testnet? If so, given how
          long it has been since the last reset and how many production
          systems will need to be updated, would a reset need to be done
          with a great deal of notice?</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>2. Is there interest in fixing the difficulty reset bug? It
          should be a one liner fix, and I&#39;d argue it could be done
          sooner rather than later, and orthogonal to the network reset
          question. Would such a change, which would technically be a
          hard fork (but also arguably a self resolving fork due to the
          difficulty dynamics) necessitate a BIP or could we just YOLO
          it?</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>3. Is all of the above a waste of time and we should
          instead deprecate testnet in favor of signet?</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>- Jameson</div>
      </div>
      -- <br>
      You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
      Groups &quot;Bitcoin Development Mailing List&quot; group.<br>
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      send an email to <a href=3D"mailto:bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroup=
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      To view this discussion on the web visit <a href=3D"https://groups.go=
ogle.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/CADL_X_eXjbRFROuJU0b336vPVy5Q2RJvhcx64NSNPH-3fD=
CUfw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=3Demail&amp;utm_source=3Dfooter" target=3D=
"_blank">https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/CADL_X_eXjbRFROuJU0b3=
36vPVy5Q2RJvhcx64NSNPH-3fDCUfw%40mail.gmail.com</a>.<br>
    </blockquote>
  </div>

</blockquote></div></div>

<p></p>

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