Received: from sog-mx-1.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.191] helo=mx.sourceforge.net) by sfs-ml-2.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1YJUdZ-0007UF-1T for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Thu, 05 Feb 2015 22:11:01 +0000 X-ACL-Warn: Received: from mail-pa0-f49.google.com ([209.85.220.49]) by sog-mx-1.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) id 1YJUdX-0007pU-Is for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Thu, 05 Feb 2015 22:11:01 +0000 Received: by mail-pa0-f49.google.com with SMTP id fa1so12685658pad.8 for ; Thu, 05 Feb 2015 14:10:54 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:references:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:cc:from:subject:date:to; bh=osK2HTpUMJ0eeitHMOGygI8wzsZjJMI8X8eIp6CFJHs=; b=Vt2ZiOnQLIb6nh+5gi4/VqpEIU5c+J7rJgp1LxhEVw3pZd/wN0yfQblVYOA1KN5rt2 TIIB0FNxUzSGC0Fkj6UBerlhyLnELB8o//xG6A8ZNF8Z9rbyskeoN6O5d6ukqYKcWE/W TBiN3KVOG1+27DqzimJco2I19xp6uhwGorZyTjAbeJBu2Hs+6mv8OXfHvre8zCNdsDUP B2FKHGBT7dZ5alBoqKv9F2VXHjJ67E7LQNxAXNWIt08ugsUaznmHSL8HyG3rCuJpeDLi bL+hRoacs0S+5R+gHjOyj7bqnhFaw+DQ7/BPyAYK1Z/jZ9sIyXgaaCNdmSAI1Q1s7chN cJIw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkShBcgzAWBwOHozI92lPBbb7Tq5AM/07UWIpZLdB/RRZXKACjIY3KvotlKHL11iqThXqZ2 X-Received: by 10.70.91.201 with SMTP id cg9mr531784pdb.57.1423174253946; Thu, 05 Feb 2015 14:10:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.195.38.15] ([166.170.37.215]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id dz2sm4460749pbc.55.2015.02.05.14.10.53 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 05 Feb 2015 14:10:53 -0800 (PST) References: <54D3D636.1030308@voskuil.org> <279489A5-1E46-48A2-8F58-1A25821D4D96@gmail.com> <6AEDF3C4-DEE0-4E31-83D0-4FD92B125452@voskuil.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-E29AADEE-165D-43DB-AF5B-B3EFDD9AD2D4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (12B440) From: Eric Voskuil Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 14:10:51 -0800 To: Paul Puey X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net. See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. 1.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message 0.0 MIME_QP_LONG_LINE RAW: Quoted-printable line longer than 76 chars -0.0 AWL AWL: Adjusted score from AWL reputation of From: address X-Headers-End: 1YJUdX-0007pU-Is Cc: Bitcoin Dev Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Proposal for P2P Wireless (Bluetooth LE) transfer of Payment URI X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2015 22:11:01 -0000 --Apple-Mail-E29AADEE-165D-43DB-AF5B-B3EFDD9AD2D4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A MITM can receive the initial broadcast and then spoof it by jamming the or= iginal. You then only see one. e > On Feb 5, 2015, at 2:07 PM, Paul Puey wrote: >=20 > So if you picked up the BLE broadcast request. All you know is that *someo= ne* within 100m is requesting bitcoin at a certain address. Not necessarily w= ho. The *name* is both optional, and possibly just a *handle* of the user. I= f I'm sitting 5 ft away from someone at dinner and wanted to pay them via BL= E, I might see "Monkey Dude" on my list and simply ask him "is that you?" If= so, I send it. If there are two "Monkey Dude's" Then I have to bother with t= he address prefix, but not otherwise. >=20 >> On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 1:46 PM, Eric Voskuil wrote: >> BLE has an advertised range of over 100m.=20 >>=20 >> http://www.bluetooth.com/Pages/low-energy-tech-info.aspx >>=20 >> In the case of mass surveillance that range could most likely be extended= dramatically by the reviewer. I've seen WiFi ranges of over a mile with a s= trong (not FCC approved) receiver. >>=20 >> WiFi hotspots don't have strong identity or a guaranteed position, so the= y can't be trusted for location. >>=20 >> e >>=20 >> On Feb 5, 2015, at 1:36 PM, Mike Hearn wrote: >>=20 >>>> This sounds horrible. You could basically monitor anyone with a wallet i= n a highly populated area and track them super easily by doing facial recogn= ition. >>>=20 >>> We're talking about BLE, still? The radio tech that runs in the so calle= d "junk bands" because propagation is so poor? >>>=20 >>> My watch loses its connection to my phone if I just put it down and walk= around my apartment. I'm all for reasonable paranoia, but Bluetooth isn't g= oing to be enabling mass surveillance any time soon. It barely goes through a= ir, let alone walls. >>>=20 >>> Anyway, whatever. I'm just bouncing around ideas for faster user interfa= ces. You could always switch it off or set it to be triggered by the presenc= e of particular wifi hotspots, if you don't mind an initial bit of setup. >>>=20 >>> Back on topic - the debate is interesting, but I think to get this to th= e stage of being a BIP we'd need at least another wallet to implement it? Th= en I guess a BIP would be useful regardless of the design issues. The prefix= matching still feels flaky to me but it's hard to know if you could really s= wipe payments out of the air in practice, without actually trying it. >=20 --Apple-Mail-E29AADEE-165D-43DB-AF5B-B3EFDD9AD2D4 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
A MITM can receive the initial broadca= st and then spoof it by jamming the original. You then only see one.

e

On Feb 5, 2015, at 2:07 PM, Paul Puey &= lt;paul@airbitz.co> wrote:

=
So if you picked up th= e BLE broadcast request. All you know is that *someone* within 100m is reque= sting bitcoin at a certain address. Not necessarily who. The *name* is both o= ptional, and possibly just a *handle* of the user. If I'm sitting 5 ft away f= rom someone at dinner and wanted to pay them via BLE, I might see "Monkey Du= de" on my list and simply ask him "is that you?" If so, I send it. If there a= re two "Monkey Dude's" Then I have to bother with the address prefix, but no= t otherwise.

On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 1:46 PM, Eric Voskuil <= span dir=3D"ltr"><e= ric@voskuil.org> wrote:
BLE has an advertised range of over 100m. 
<= br>
http://www.bluetooth.com/Pages/low-energy-tech-info= .aspx

In the= case of mass surveillance that range could most likely be extended dramatic= ally by the reviewer. I've seen  WiFi ranges of over a mile with a stro= ng (not FCC approved) receiver.

WiFi hotspots don't have str= ong identity or a guaranteed position, so they can't be trusted for location= .

=
e

On Feb 5, 2015, at 1:36 PM, Mike Hearn <mike@plan99.net> wrote:

<= blockquote type=3D"cite">
This sounds horrible. You could basically monitor anyone with a wallet in a= highly populated area and track them super easily by doing facial recogniti= on.

We're talking about BLE, sti= ll? The radio tech that runs in the so called "junk bands" because propagati= on is so poor?

My watch loses its connection to my p= hone if I just put it down and walk around my apartment. I'm all for reasona= ble paranoia, but Bluetooth isn't going to be enabling mass surveillance any= time soon. It barely goes through air, let alone walls.

Anyway, whatever. I'm just bouncing around ideas for faster user inter= faces. You could always switch it off or set it to be triggered by the prese= nce of particular wifi hotspots, if you don't mind an initial bit of setup.<= /div>

Back on topic - the debate is interesting, but I th= ink to get this to the stage of being a BIP we'd need at least another walle= t to implement it? Then I guess a BIP would be useful regardless of the desi= gn issues. The prefix matching still feels flaky to me but it's hard to know= if you could really swipe payments out of the air in practice, without actu= ally trying it.



= --Apple-Mail-E29AADEE-165D-43DB-AF5B-B3EFDD9AD2D4--