Return-Path: Received: from smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (smtp1.linux-foundation.org [172.17.192.35]) by mail.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EDF56B1E for ; Fri, 23 Jun 2017 18:11:29 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6 Received: from mail-qk0-f174.google.com (mail-qk0-f174.google.com [209.85.220.174]) by smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E9318237 for ; Fri, 23 Jun 2017 18:11:28 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-qk0-f174.google.com with SMTP id r62so41761851qkf.0 for ; Fri, 23 Jun 2017 11:11:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language; bh=4bgFvi0VA7AC1VlZk6GnwJrP6t05cpFq8jus322OBgY=; b=XcHasM+DggAldPI8tAxWFbc8KVPXF1aPuYtZWSbhV9wZucs1Iz3KsWVUOqOo3lV5mX Qp/EVJPYBgnzYGe6liOZxhI9K7+/7qg/A4xOO13EhSOhjH/vxRuL1zn09Jv4jzfzaGl8 pd/h+AC4G/M7SkhX7NflAf7GkOtWG7E9cVCSQSrD5joBhB5Oc/WCsbrRwTlzBkZZPrb5 OYD7EoZMwW+G62zZYV6JvNeoGvzR7hrIIyKSXB3y4OYrcrxYU2EL2lJA6OMT+x0LqWo3 h/AGG8Gi7ywS8ZfDbD0Quz5rgScbUDjxR6LtbhIRtQyVa8fIp+8LzQgLATcFQyen5+4x JoJQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language; bh=4bgFvi0VA7AC1VlZk6GnwJrP6t05cpFq8jus322OBgY=; b=Y4jAlOvGHBZcjCOnQa1d+Z0Ssi/W8IlKOoUE64Us2LVqwbggHUL2iRoqZ6Y9p6/g1u IvqyltsuxiDbnqNMPG00MOIKJjfrCjDo8OWJj8p/ZQ8S8vtIHup2H/IafEHWmo/+bJxM PsGBXFMQlrlK/3phiT1hgfOX0Rxr2TO8dDlgsll7JUlvig+N3fWReeEy5ca1+0TnSZVe 3DDUMEwKgEo/KzhKAROMINIJScW1HThgCTQmw0zwSU5a7//yuxCmaJZvJkYkSPSxgHqU keUPI3XsQZ5y25g17TFz/5KBQHVOoW3NZdGYEXcT97XoqzKuvcqR28Er4ak/W436/BYw sVuw== X-Gm-Message-State: AKS2vOwToQLi+jB2nnLCt7dW8dvO5hYK1FK6qCdkCp4+H8vM/6Cq6pz3 PpL/wFzg7Dsq7wvO X-Received: by 10.55.220.133 with SMTP id v127mr2751768qki.42.1498241487845; Fri, 23 Jun 2017 11:11:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.101] (ool-45726efb.dyn.optonline.net. [69.114.110.251]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id a15sm1304933qta.16.2017.06.23.11.11.25 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 23 Jun 2017 11:11:26 -0700 (PDT) To: Erik Aronesty References: <24f2b447-a237-45eb-ef9f-1a62533fad5c@gmail.com> <83671224-f6ff-16a9-81c0-20ab578aec9d@gmail.com> <6764b8af-bb4c-615d-5af5-462127bbbe36@gmail.com> <33d98418-10f0-3854-a954-14985d53e04b@gmail.com> From: Paul Sztorc Message-ID: <4e79ca13-17f7-d5ed-1c7f-c9e01e88ad95@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2017 14:11:26 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------D1C08450461B3D7FC09BC6FB" Content-Language: en-US X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.0 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU, FREEMAIL_FROM, HTML_MESSAGE, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham version=3.3.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on smtp1.linux-foundation.org Cc: Bitcoin Dev Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Drivechain RfD -- Follow Up X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2017 18:11:30 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------D1C08450461B3D7FC09BC6FB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 6/23/2017 10:19 AM, Erik Aronesty wrote: > > They would certainly not be cheap, because they are relatively more expensive due to the > extra depreciation cost. > > If you design the inflation schedule correctly, it should be balance > transaction costs *precisely*. You have not explained how your scheme would cause a relative decrease in transaction costs. The way I see it, tx costs would be exactly the same, so it would in fact be impossible to design an inflation schedule to "balance" these costs (other than inflation of zero as I suggest). > > > I don't think that blind merged mining messes with the main chain's > incentive structure > > Miners who are able to deal with the bandwidth caused by drivechain > coffee transactions There is no additional bandwidth requirement. That is the point of BMM. They do not even need to run a sidechain node (to be paid just as much as if they had). --Paul > > On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 4:30 PM, Paul Sztorc > wrote: > > Responses inline. > > On 6/22/2017 9:45 AM, Erik Aronesty wrote: >> Users would tolerate depreciation because the intention is to >> have a cheap way of transacting using a two-way pegged chain that >> isn't controlled by miners. Who cares about some minor >> depreciation when the purpose of the chain is to do cheap secure >> transactions forever? > > Thus far you've claimed that these transactions would be "cheap", > "[not] controlled by miners", and "secure". > > They would certainly not be cheap, because they are relatively > more expensive due to the extra depreciation cost. > > I also doubt that they would be free of control by miners. 51% > hashrate can always filter out any message they want from anywhere. > > For the same reason, I don't understand why they would be any more > or less secure. > > So I think your way is just a more expensive way of accomplishing > basically the same result. > >> >> Add in UTXO commitments and you've got a system that is cheap and >> secure-enough for transfer. storage and accumulation of a >> ledger... before moving in to the main chain. > > As I posted to bitcoin-discuss last week, I support UTXO > commitments for sidechains. > >> Seems better to me than messing with the main chain's incentive >> structure via merged mining. > > I don't think that blind merged mining messes with the main > chain's incentive structure. Miners are free to ignore the > sidechain (and yet still get paid the same as other miners), as > are all mainchain users. > > Paul >> >> On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 9:27 AM, Paul Sztorc > > wrote: >> >> Hi Erik, >> >> I don't think that your design is competitive. Why would >> users tolerate a depreciation of X% per year, when there are >> alternatives which do not require such depreciation? It seems >> to me that none would. >> >> Paul >> >> On 6/20/2017 9:38 AM, Erik Aronesty wrote: >>> - a proof-of-burn sidechain is the ultimate two-way peg. >>> you have to burn bitcoin *or* side-chain tokens to mine the >>> side chain. the size of the burn is the degree of >>> security. i actually wrote code to do randomized blind >>> burns where you have a poisson distribution >>> (non-deterministic selected burn). there is no way to >>> game it... it's very similar to algorand - but it uses burns >>> instead of staking >>> >>> - you can then have a secure sidechain that issues a mining >>> reward in sidechain tokens, which can be aggrregated and >>> redeemed for bitcoins. the result of this is that any >>> bitcoins held in the sidechain depreciate in value at a rate >>> of X% per year. this deflation rate pays for increased >>> security >>> >>> - logically this functions like an alt coin, with high >>> inflation and cheap transactions. but the altcoin is >>> pegged to bitcoin's price because of the pool of unredeemed >>> bitcoins held within the side chain. >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 7:54 AM, Paul Sztorc >>> > wrote: >>> >>> Hi Erik, >>> >>> As you know: >>> >>> 1. If a sidechain is merged mined it basically grows out >>> of the existing Bitcoin mining network. If it has a >>> different PoW algorithm it is a new mining network. >>> 2. The security (ie, hashrate) of any mining network >>> would be determined by the total economic value of the >>> block. In Bitcoin this is (subsidy+tx_fees)*price, but >>> since a sidechain cannot issue new tokens it would only >>> be (tx_fees)*price. >>> >>> Unfortunately the two have a nasty correlation which can >>> lead to a disastrous self-fulfilling prophecy: users >>> will avoid a network that is too insecure; and if users >>> avoid using a network, they will stop paying txn fees >>> and so the quantity (tx_fees)*price falls toward zero, >>> erasing the network's security. So it is quite >>> problematic and I recommend just biting the bullet and >>> going with merged mining instead. >>> >>> And, the point may be moot. Bitcoin miners may decide >>> that, given their expertise in seeking out cheap sources >>> of power/cooling, they might as well mine both/all >>> chains. So your suggestion may not achieve your desired >>> result (and would, meanwhile, consume more of the >>> economy's resources -- some of these would not >>> contribute even to a higher hashrate). >>> >>> Paul >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On 6/19/2017 1:11 PM, Erik Aronesty wrote: >>>> It would be nice to be able to enforce that a >>>> drivechain *not* have the same POW as bitcoin. >>>> >>>> I suspect this is the only way to be sure that a >>>> drivechain doesn't destabilize the main chain and push >>>> more power to miners that already have too much power. >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> > > --------------D1C08450461B3D7FC09BC6FB Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
On 6/23/2017 10:19 AM, Erik Aronesty wrote:
> They would certainly not be cheap, because they are relatively more expensive due to the extra depreciation cost.

If you design the inflation schedule correctly, it should be balance transaction costs *precisely*.

You have not explained how your scheme would cause a relative decrease in transaction costs. The way I see it, tx costs would be exactly the same, so it would in fact be impossible to design an inflation schedule to "balance" these costs (other than inflation of zero as I suggest).


> I don't think that blind merged mining messes with the main chain's incentive structure 

Miners who are able to deal with the bandwidth caused by drivechain coffee transactions
There is no additional bandwidth requirement. That is the point of BMM. They do not even need to run a sidechain node (to be paid just as much as if they had).

--Paul




On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 4:30 PM, Paul Sztorc <truthcoin@gmail.com> wrote:
Responses inline.

On 6/22/2017 9:45 AM, Erik Aronesty wrote:
Users would tolerate depreciation because the intention is to have a cheap way of transacting using a two-way pegged chain that isn't controlled by miners.  Who cares about some minor depreciation when the purpose of the chain is to do cheap secure transactions forever?

 Thus far you've claimed that these transactions would be "cheap", "[not] controlled by miners", and "secure".

They would certainly not be cheap, because they are relatively more expensive due to the extra depreciation cost.

I also doubt that they would be free of control by miners. 51% hashrate can always filter out any message they want from anywhere.

For the same reason, I don't understand why they would be any more or less secure.

So I think your way is just a more expensive way of accomplishing basically the same result.


Add in UTXO commitments and you've got a system that is cheap and secure-enough for transfer. storage and accumulation of a ledger... before moving in to the main chain.

As I posted to bitcoin-discuss last week, I support UTXO commitments for sidechains.

Seems better to me than messing with the main chain's incentive structure via merged mining.

 I don't think that blind merged mining messes with the main chain's incentive structure. Miners are free to ignore the sidechain (and yet still get paid the same as other miners), as are all mainchain users.

Paul

On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 9:27 AM, Paul Sztorc <truthcoin@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Erik,

I don't think that your design is competitive. Why would users tolerate a depreciation of X% per year, when there are alternatives which do not require such depreciation? It seems to me that none would.

Paul

On 6/20/2017 9:38 AM, Erik Aronesty wrote:
- a proof-of-burn sidechain is the ultimate two-way peg.   you have to burn bitcoin *or* side-chain tokens to mine the side chain.   the size of the burn is the degree of security.    i actually wrote code to do randomized blind burns where you have a poisson distribution (non-deterministic selected burn).    there is no way to game it... it's very similar to algorand - but it uses burns instead of staking

- you can then have a secure sidechain that issues a mining reward in sidechain tokens, which can be aggrregated and redeemed for bitcoins.   the result of this is that any bitcoins held in the sidechain depreciate in value at a rate of X% per year.   this deflation rate pays for increased security

- logically this functions like an alt coin, with high inflation and cheap transactions.   but the altcoin is pegged to bitcoin's price because of the pool of unredeemed bitcoins held within the side chain.



On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 7:54 AM, Paul Sztorc <truthcoin@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Erik,

As you know:

1. If a sidechain is merged mined it basically grows out of the existing Bitcoin mining network. If it has a different PoW algorithm it is a new mining network.
2. The security (ie, hashrate) of any mining network would be determined by the total economic value of the block. In Bitcoin this is (subsidy+tx_fees)*price, but since a sidechain cannot issue new tokens it would only be (tx_fees)*price.

Unfortunately the two have a nasty correlation which can lead to a disastrous self-fulfilling prophecy: users will avoid a network that is too insecure; and if users avoid using a network, they will stop paying txn fees and so the quantity (tx_fees)*price falls toward zero, erasing the network's security. So it is quite problematic and I recommend just biting the bullet and going with merged mining instead.

And, the point may be moot. Bitcoin miners may decide that, given their expertise in seeking out cheap sources of power/cooling, they might as well mine both/all chains. So your suggestion may not achieve your desired result (and would, meanwhile, consume more of the economy's resources -- some of these would not contribute even to a higher hashrate).

Paul




On 6/19/2017 1:11 PM, Erik Aronesty wrote:
It would be nice to be able to enforce that a drivechain *not* have the same POW as bitcoin.

I suspect this is the only way to be sure that a drivechain doesn't destabilize the main chain and push more power to miners that already have too much power.









--------------D1C08450461B3D7FC09BC6FB--