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[76.167.237.202]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id qw13sm16255552pab.14.2015.06.21.01.35.52 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sun, 21 Jun 2015 01:35:53 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2098\)) Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_6681557F-11C9-4FA2-B540-1DAC041FA45F"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 X-Pgp-Agent: GPGMail 2.5b6 From: Eric Lombrozo In-Reply-To: <30AF043D-A1F8-4502-8280-EBED6063B6B6@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2015 01:35:50 -0700 Message-Id: References: <20150619103959.GA32315@savin.petertodd.org> <04CE3756-B032-464C-8FBD-7ACDD1A3197D@gmail.com> <812d8353e66637ec182da31bc0a9aac1@riseup.net> <1727885.UUNByX4Jyd@crushinator> <83A7C606-B601-47D2-BE10-2A1412D97514@gmail.com> <8a49c53a032503eeca4f51cdef725fe1@riseup.net> <6d025db96e7aec4e6e47a76883a9a1e3@riseup.net> <70534C5D-8834-42B5-B495-FD9975E8FCF4@gmail.com> <30AF043D-A1F8-4502-8280-EBED6063B6B6@gmail.com> To: Jeff Garzik X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2098) X-Spam-Score: -0.8 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net. See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. -1.5 SPF_CHECK_PASS SPF reports sender host as permitted sender for sender-domain 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (elombrozo[at]gmail.com) -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 1.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message -0.1 DKIM_VALID_AU Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from author's domain 0.1 DKIM_SIGNED Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid -0.1 DKIM_VALID Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature -0.2 AWL AWL: Adjusted score from AWL reputation of From: address X-Headers-End: 1Z6ajQ-00063F-63 Cc: Bitcoin Dev , Justus Ranvier Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] F2Pool has enabled full replace-by-fee X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2015 08:36:01 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_6681557F-11C9-4FA2-B540-1DAC041FA45F Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_E492F3A3-265A-4CAD-88B3-03BB53AA9A27" --Apple-Mail=_E492F3A3-265A-4CAD-88B3-03BB53AA9A27 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Jun 21, 2015, at 12:42 AM, Eric Lombrozo = wrote: >=20 >=20 >> On Jun 20, 2015, at 11:45 PM, Jeff Garzik > wrote: >>=20 >> On Sat, Jun 20, 2015 at 5:54 PM, Eric Lombrozo > wrote: >> but we NEED to be applying some kind of pressure on the merchant end = to upgrade their stuff to be more resilient >>=20 >> Can you be specific? What precise technical steps would you have = BitPay and Coinbase do? We upgrade our stuff to... what exactly? >>=20 >> -- >> Jeff Garzik >> Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist >> BitPay, Inc. https://bitpay.com/ > Thanks for asking *the* question, Jeff. We often get caught up in = these philosophical debates=E2=80=A6but at the end of the day we need = something concrete. >=20 > Even more important than the specific software you=E2=80=99re using is = the security policy. >=20 > If you must accept zero confirmation transactions, there are a few = concrete things you can do to reduce your exposure: >=20 > 1) limit the transaction amounts for zero confirmation transactions - = do not accept them for very high priced goods=E2=80=A6especially if they = require physical shipping. > 2) limit the total amount of unconfirmed revenue you=E2=80=99ll = tolerate at any given moment - if the amount is exceeded, require = confirmations. > 3) give merchants of subscription services (i.e. servers, hosting, = etc=E2=80=A6) the ability to shut the user out if a double-spend is = detected. > 4) collect legal information on purchasers (or have the merchants = collect this information) so you have someone to go after if they try to = screw you > 5) create a risk profile for users=E2=80=A6and flag suspicious = behavior (i.e. someone trying to purchase a bunch of stuff that totally = doesn=E2=80=99t fit into their purchasing habits). > 6) get insurance (although right now reasonably-priced insurance is = probably pretty hard to obtain since statistics are generally of little = use=E2=80=A6we=E2=80=99re entering uncharted territory). > 7) set up a warning system and a =E2=80=9Cpanic=E2=80=9D button so = that if you start to see an attack you can immediately disable all zero = confirmation transactions system-wide. > 8) independently verify all inbound transactions and connect to = multiple network nodes=E2=80=A6check them against one another. >=20 >=20 > As for software tools to accomplish these things, we can talk about = that offline :) >=20 >=20 > - Eric Lombrozo >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 I should also point out that pretty much all of these suggestions = (except for maybe 8) would apply to ANY payment system=E2=80=A6they are = NOT specific to Bitcoin whatsoever. Any serious payment processor should = have these sorts of policies engrained as part of company culture=E2=80=A6= or else one day (probably not too long from now) you=E2=80=99ll be out = of business. The mere suggestion that changing relay policy would pose = significant threats to the bottom line of a payment processor is about = the height of amateurishness, IMHO. - Eric Lombrozo --Apple-Mail=_E492F3A3-265A-4CAD-88B3-03BB53AA9A27 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
On Jun 21, 2015, at 12:42 AM, Eric Lombrozo <elombrozo@gmail.com>= wrote:


On Jun 20, 2015, at 11:45 PM, Jeff Garzik <jgarzik@bitpay.com> = wrote:

On Sat, Jun 20, 2015 at 5:54 PM, Eric Lombrozo = <elombrozo@gmail.com> = wrote:
 but we NEED = to be applying some kind of pressure on the merchant end to upgrade = their stuff to be more resilient

Can you be = specific?  What precise technical steps would you have BitPay and = Coinbase do?  We upgrade our stuff to... what = exactly?

--
Jeff Garzik
Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist
BitPay, Inc.      https://bitpay.com/

Thanks for = asking *the* question, Jeff. We often get caught up in these = philosophical debates=E2=80=A6but at the end of the day we need = something concrete.

Even more important than the specific software you=E2=80=99re = using is the security policy.

If you must accept zero confirmation = transactions, there are a few concrete things you can do to reduce your = exposure:

1) = limit the transaction amounts for zero confirmation transactions - do = not accept them for very high priced goods=E2=80=A6especially if they = require physical shipping.
2) limit the total = amount of unconfirmed revenue you=E2=80=99ll tolerate at any given = moment - if the amount is exceeded, require confirmations.
3) give merchants of subscription services (i.e. servers, = hosting, etc=E2=80=A6) the ability to shut the user out if a = double-spend is detected.
4) collect legal = information on purchasers (or have the merchants collect this = information) so you have someone to go after if they try to screw = you
5) create a risk profile for users=E2=80=A6and = flag suspicious behavior (i.e. someone trying to purchase a bunch of = stuff that totally doesn=E2=80=99t fit into their purchasing = habits).
6) get insurance (although right now = reasonably-priced insurance is probably pretty hard to obtain since = statistics are generally of little use=E2=80=A6we=E2=80=99re entering = uncharted territory).
7) set up a warning system = and a =E2=80=9Cpanic=E2=80=9D button so that if you start to see an = attack you can immediately disable all zero confirmation transactions = system-wide.
8) independently verify all inbound = transactions and connect to multiple network nodes=E2=80=A6check them = against one another.


As for software tools to = accomplish these things, we can talk about that offline :)


- Eric Lombrozo





I should also point out that pretty much all = of these suggestions (except for maybe 8) would apply to ANY payment = system=E2=80=A6they are NOT specific to Bitcoin whatsoever. Any serious = payment processor should have these sorts of policies engrained as part = of company culture=E2=80=A6or else one day (probably not too long from = now) you=E2=80=99ll be out of business. The mere suggestion that = changing relay policy would pose significant threats to the bottom line = of a payment processor is about the height of amateurishness, = IMHO.


- Eric Lombrozo
= --Apple-Mail=_E492F3A3-265A-4CAD-88B3-03BB53AA9A27-- --Apple-Mail=_6681557F-11C9-4FA2-B540-1DAC041FA45F Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJVhndmAAoJEJNAI64YFENUivQQAIeaMpiZ/+tLP92XFb69OPmx Y6+2UUhk+YnQTV1whqpy+7zzqsCl8mJUzZ9ru3PZl5yTMyaOq3dnXVwagktIp9El m60oNXlbOf/KMlHyAqOQBTxFsLFCLE1Ukg9fKHWvxm1GPw/Tgk30RGzf5pUFtTD3 w6aU5MGFBpx2TDxOVWWgheZ0QU8/KP8vHvH22tPPqot0DViXeQJFH5htMS75wjd5 XiLdBUWUbbo/ChK7W2QMmsA5R0q+WK+6ybOq0Q+ZL0SYEOE0fiGN/++c+yKaX7WA BzCYyaxPVU/Kza3MzGHIIN5yejilikYTOoDmE2lEKHvFyFxUd230cA0DaWxOw9t1 4bGATfDGzlOBhZbCpr0Vnyctg1+qeEcbjp/TXmmYWnu6taUdJmCv3JtDco2E77L9 LRrJA9+eOh1uh+2QQD+oFfIsTBemymwDcCZFvhb6tDdoniiun5Qluzj1RKmkWcZK 9IXM7nh0AYghTCLBDN3tyuMXZLZCqU54ijzuyj1WbxloeX4C+oruaYo+G86ZtB4Y uV6CXc0PZ10akgVrdtJoLdWSTXwq7u+rrYgwkXb3dH/BviwFsBkkd4zkMSns4eAq qH4p9zXMeO+CnU1Xe3ZZjYghnpNnS1PRrCp9X5s+iDZOP/OnKkite/hvmYTdyWMV V2pg9IIfS2EZfUllfSQC =l45g -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_6681557F-11C9-4FA2-B540-1DAC041FA45F--