Received: from sog-mx-4.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.194] helo=mx.sourceforge.net) by sfs-ml-2.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1RsF5z-0006vB-8e for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 14:54:07 +0000 Received-SPF: pass (sog-mx-4.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com: domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.160.175 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.160.175; envelope-from=g.rowe.froot@gmail.com; helo=mail-gy0-f175.google.com; Received: from mail-gy0-f175.google.com ([209.85.160.175]) by sog-mx-4.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) id 1RsF5v-0001ZS-0h for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 14:54:07 +0000 Received: by ghbf19 with SMTP id f19so59164ghb.34 for ; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 06:53:57 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.236.201.230 with SMTP id b66mr9432486yho.67.1328021637567; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 06:53:57 -0800 (PST) Sender: g.rowe.froot@gmail.com Received: by 10.236.195.99 with HTTP; Tue, 31 Jan 2012 06:53:57 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <1328020046.70720.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 14:53:57 +0000 X-Google-Sender-Auth: T-Ph1r3ttxMLUJ9VYMte8HW1xSQ Message-ID: From: Gary Rowe To: Bitcoin Development List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf305e2529f6157204b7d421c3 X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net. See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. -1.5 SPF_CHECK_PASS SPF reports sender host as permitted sender for sender-domain 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (g.rowe.froot[at]gmail.com) -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 1.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message 0.1 DKIM_SIGNED Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid -0.1 DKIM_VALID Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature X-Headers-End: 1RsF5v-0001ZS-0h Subject: [Bitcoin-development] BIP 20 Rejected, process for BIP 21N X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 14:54:07 -0000 --20cf305e2529f6157204b7d421c3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Regarding the decimal vs satoshi notation I see a few problems with satoshi: * readability - humans reading the URI would expect it to accurately reflect what is being displayed (subject to internationalisation issues) For example, amount=1.234 is more human readable than amount=123400000 (ish) * backwards compatibility - existing software already uses the decimal notation * forwards compatibility - Bitcoin needs to move beyond the satoshi to 20 dps for some reason, this remains OK within the existing schema, but forces decimals into the satoshi scheme * simplicity - dual decimal/satoshi variants should be discouraged under the "single representation" approach It's relatively straightforward to convert a string encoded decimal into an internal integer for currency calculations just by applying a multiplying factor. One never uses doubles or floats for money. On 31 January 2012 14:33, slush wrote: > Hi Amir, > > > All the HTML, URI and everything uses decimal numbers alone. I see no > reason for breaking with tradition. > > excuse me if it was already discussed, but maybe using satoshis instead of > decimal bitcoin would be better choice? We all know about pains with proper > handling decimal numbers across of all implementations - and it's not only > about json-rpc. > > Otherwise I agree, BIP 21 is better than BIP 20 because it's easier to > implement all points of the standard. > > Best, > slush > > On Tue, Jan 31, 2012 at 3:27 PM, Amir Taaki wrote: > >> BIP 20 really has no support among implementations such as Bitcoin-Qt, >> Electrum, MultiBit or Bitcoin-JS. As the most active and visible user >> facing GUI projects (all with some form of URI Scheme), their opinion >> carries the most weight. To a lesser degree Bitcoin-Qt has the large >> majority of users too (although that's a line of reasoning I'd discourage). >> >> Normally we should probably Reject BIP 21 and re-submit a new standard >> (for history's sake), but as a) BIP 21 is largely a copy paste of BIP 20 >> sans some sections b) it is still a draft, probably the best thing here is >> if you all agree on something to run it by BlueMatt and then we'll make it >> the new BIP 21. >> >> I can see a consensus forming on most parts. Just the send private key is >> contentious, and there's the topic of adding a time to expire field for >> merchants (this is a very good idea IMO). >> >> Also BIP 20 is problematic because it is incompatible with about every >> standard on the web. All the HTML, URI and everything uses decimal numbers >> alone. I see no reason for breaking with tradition. Note that everytime I >> have to write Color or Vectorize (as a British speaker) in my code, I die a >> little inside. But it's convention and American English = International >> English. Also it would be cool if all code used a *real* international >> language (like Esperanto) but the world ain't perfect! We live in a >> decimal-counting English-speaking Windows-using God-worshipping world! >> >> (no offense to decimal-counting English-speaking Windows-using >> God-worshipping world- I do half those things too :) >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow! >> The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers >> is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, >> Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-d2d >> _______________________________________________ >> Bitcoin-development mailing list >> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development >> > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow! > The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers > is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, > Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! > http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-d2d > _______________________________________________ > Bitcoin-development mailing list > Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development > > --20cf305e2529f6157204b7d421c3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Regarding the decimal vs satoshi notation I see = a few problems with satoshi:

* readability - humans reading the URI = would expect it to accurately reflect what is being displayed (subject to i= nternationalisation issues) For example, amount=3D1.234 is more human reada= ble than amount=3D123400000 (ish)
* backwards compatibility - existing software already uses the decimal nota= tion
* forwards compatibility - Bitcoin needs to move beyond the satoshi= to 20 dps for some reason, this remains OK within the existing schema, but= forces decimals into the satoshi scheme
* simplicity - dual decimal/satoshi variants should be discouraged under th= e "single representation" approach

It's relatively str= aightforward to convert a string encoded decimal into an internal integer f= or currency calculations just by applying a multiplying factor. One never u= ses doubles or floats for money.


On 31 January 2012 14:33, slush <slush@centr= um.cz> wrote:
Hi Amir,

>=C2=A0=C2=A0All the HTML, URI and= everything uses decimal numbers alone. I see no reason for breaking with t= radition.=C2=A0

excuse me if it was al= ready discussed, but maybe using satoshis instead of decimal bitcoin would = be better choice? We all know about pains with proper handling decimal numb= ers across of all implementations - and it's not only about json-rpc.

Otherwise I agree, BIP 21 is better than BIP 20 because= it's easier to implement all points of the standard.

Best,
slush

On Tue, Jan 31,= 2012 at 3:27 PM, Amir Taaki <zgenjix@yahoo.com> wrote:
BIP 20 really has no supp= ort among implementations such as Bitcoin-Qt, Electrum, MultiBit or Bitcoin= -JS. As the most active and visible user facing GUI projects (all with some= form of URI Scheme), their opinion carries the most weight. To a lesser de= gree Bitcoin-Qt has the large majority of users too (although that's a = line of reasoning I'd discourage).

Normally we should probably Reject BIP 21 and re-submit a new standard (for= history's sake), but as a) BIP 21 is largely a copy paste of BIP 20 sa= ns some sections b) it is still a draft, probably the best thing here is if= you all agree on something to run it by BlueMatt and then we'll make i= t the new BIP 21.

I can see a consensus forming on most parts. Just the send private key is c= ontentious, and there's the topic of adding a time to expire field for = merchants (this is a very good idea IMO).

Also BIP 20 is problematic because it is incompatible with about every stan= dard on the web. All the HTML, URI and everything uses decimal numbers alon= e. I see no reason for breaking with tradition. Note that everytime I have = to write Color or Vectorize (as a British speaker) in my code, I die a litt= le inside. But it's convention and American English =3D International E= nglish. Also it would be cool if all code used a *real* international langu= age (like Esperanto) but the world ain't perfect! We live in a decimal-= counting English-speaking Windows-using God-worshipping world!

(no offense to=C2=A0decimal-counting English-speaking Windows-using God-wor= shipping world- I do half those things too :)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---
Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow!
The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers
is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now!
http://p.= sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-d2d
_______________________________________________
Bitcoin-development mailing list
Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-de= velopment


-----------------------------------------------------------= -------------------
Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow!
The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers
is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now!
http://p.= sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-d2d
_________________________________________= ______
Bitcoin-development mailing list
Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-de= velopment



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