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From: Billy Tetrud <billy.tetrud@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2022 23:31:09 -0500
Message-ID: <CAGpPWDbTfW3fTO1K=aFj1vUym5zbDes8DgifqLHUGCCV7Vgh4g@mail.gmail.com>
To: pushd <pushd@protonmail.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000008c7b7005db7c229a"
Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>,
 Anthony Towns <aj@erisian.com.au>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Speedy Trial
Precedence: list

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>  Many users, miners and exchanges still think its voting

Why do you care what they think? Why does it matter if they misunderstand?

> it is not an imaginary group of people

If the people aren't imaginary, then its their importance that's imaginary.

> One example of a mining pool

This isn't even sufficient evidence that they don't understand. Its quite
possible they're using the word "voting" loosely or that they don't
understand english very well. And again, so what if they tweet things that
are not correctly worded? This is not a reason to change how we design
bitcoin soft forks.

Its not even wrong to say that a particular signaling round is very much
like voting. What's wrong is saying that bitcoin upgrades are made if and
only if miners vote to approve those changes.

> I see a problem that exists

You haven't convinced me this is a significant problem. What are the
concrete downsides? Why do you think this can't be fixed by simple
persistent explaining? You can find groups of people who misunderstand
basically any aspect of bitcoin. The solution to people misunderstanding
the design is never to change how bitcoin is designed.


On Wed, Mar 30, 2022 at 4:14 PM pushd <pushd@protonmail.com> wrote:

> > No it does not. This narrative is the worst. A bad explanation of
> speedy trial can mislead people into thinking miner signalling is how
> Bitcoin upgrades are voted in. But a bad explanation can explain anything
> badly.
>
> I agree it is worst but why do you think this narrative exists? People
> have tried explaining it. Many users, miners and exchanges still think its
> voting. I think the problem is with activation method so BIP 8/LOT=TRUE is
> a solution.
>
>
> > The solution is not to change how we engineer soft forks, it's to
> explain speedy trial better to this imaginary group of important people
> that think miner signaling is voting.
>
> We can suggest different solutions but the problem exists and it is not an
> imaginary group of people.
>
> One example of a mining pool: https://archive.ph/oyH04
>
>
> > We shouldn't change how we engineer Bitcoin because of optics. I
> completely object to that point continuing to be used.
>
> Voting as described on wiki is quite similar to what happens during miners
> signaling followed by activation if a certain threshold is reached. If some
> participants in this process consider it voting instead of signaling for
> readiness then listing advantages of a better activation method should help
> everyone reading this thread/email.
>
> Sorry, I don't understand your objection. I see a problem that exists
> since years and a better activation method fixes it. There are other
> positives for using BIP 8/LOT=TRUE which I shared in
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2022-March/020178.html
>
> I will continue to discuss this problem with solutions until we use better
> activation methods for future soft forks in any discussion about activation
> methods.
>
>
> pushd
> ---
>
> parallel lines meet at infinity?
>
> ------- Original Message -------
> On Thursday, March 31st, 2022 at 1:40 AM, Billy Tetrud <
> billy.tetrud@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> @Pushd
>
> > Speedy trial makes it worse by misleading lot of bitcoin users
> including miners to consider signaling as voting and majority votes decide
> if a soft fork gets activated
>
> No it does not. This narrative is the worst. A bad explanation of speedy
> trial can mislead people into thinking miner signalling is how Bitcoin
> upgrades are voted in. But a bad explanation can explain anything badly.
> The solution is not to change how we engineer soft forks, it's to explain
> speedy trial better to this imaginary group of important people that think
> miner signaling is voting.
>
> We shouldn't change how we engineer Bitcoin because of optics. I
> completely object to that point continuing to be used.
>
> On Wed, Mar 30, 2022, 05:36 pushd via bitcoin-dev <
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>
>> > Any case where a flawed proposal makes it through getting activation
>> parameters set and released, but doesn't achieve supermajority hashpower
>> support is made worse by bip8/lot=true in comparison to speedy trial.
>>
>> - Flawed proposal making it through activation is a failure of review
>> process
>>
>> - Supermajority hashpower percentage decided by bitcoin core developers
>> can choose to not follow old or new consensus rules at any point
>>
>> - Speedy trial makes it worse by misleading lot of bitcoin users
>> including miners to consider signaling as voting and majority votes decide
>> if a soft fork gets activated
>>
>> - BIP 8/LOT=TRUE keeps things simple. Miners need to follow consensus
>> rules as they do right now if they wish to mine blocks for subsidy and fees.
>>
>>
>> Note: Mining pools or individual miners can participate in soft fork
>> discussions regardless of activation method and share their concern which
>> can be evaluated based on technical merits.
>>
>>
>> pushd
>> ---
>>
>> parallel lines meet at infinity?
>> _______________________________________________
>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>>
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">&gt;=C2=A0

<span style=3D"font-family:arial;font-size:14px">Many users, miners and exc=
hanges still think its voting</span><div><span style=3D"font-family:arial;f=
ont-size:14px"><br></span></div><div><span style=3D"font-family:arial;font-=
size:14px">Why do you care what they think? Why does it matter if they misu=
nderstand?</span></div><div><span style=3D"font-family:arial;font-size:14px=
"><br></span></div><div><span style=3D"font-family:arial;font-size:14px">&g=
t;=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"font-family:arial;font-size:14px">it is not a=
n imaginary group of people</span></div><div><span style=3D"font-family:ari=
al;font-size:14px"><br></span></div><div><span style=3D"font-family:arial;f=
ont-size:14px">If the people aren&#39;t imaginary, then its their importanc=
e that&#39;s imaginary.</span></div><div><span style=3D"font-family:arial;f=
ont-size:14px"><br></span></div><div><span style=3D"font-family:arial;font-=
size:14px">&gt;=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"font-family:arial;font-size:14px=
">One example of a mining pool</span></div><div><span style=3D"font-family:=
arial;font-size:14px"><br></span></div><div><span style=3D"font-family:aria=
l;font-size:14px">This isn&#39;t even sufficient evidence that they don&#39=
;t understand. Its quite possible they&#39;re using the word &quot;voting&q=
uot; loosely or that they don&#39;t understand english very well. And again=
, so what if they tweet things that are not correctly worded? This is not a=
 reason to change how we design bitcoin soft=C2=A0forks.=C2=A0</span></div>=
<div><span style=3D"font-family:arial;font-size:14px"><br></span></div><div=
><span style=3D"font-family:arial;font-size:14px">Its not even wrong to say=
 that a particular signaling round is very much like voting. What&#39;s wro=
ng is saying that bitcoin upgrades are made if and only if miners vote to a=
pprove those changes.=C2=A0</span></div><div><span style=3D"font-family:ari=
al;font-size:14px"><br></span></div><div><span style=3D"font-family:arial;f=
ont-size:14px">&gt;=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"font-family:arial;font-size:=
14px">I see a problem that exists</span></div><div><span style=3D"font-fami=
ly:arial;font-size:14px"><br></span></div><div><span style=3D"font-family:a=
rial;font-size:14px">You haven&#39;t convinced me this is a significant pro=
blem. What are the concrete downsides? Why do you think this can&#39;t be f=
ixed by simple persistent explaining? You can find groups of people who mis=
understand basically any aspect of bitcoin. The solution to people misunder=
standing the design is never to change how bitcoin is designed.</span></div=
><div><span style=3D"font-family:arial;font-size:14px"><br></span></div></d=
iv><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On =
Wed, Mar 30, 2022 at 4:14 PM pushd &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pushd@protonmail.c=
om" target=3D"_blank">pushd@protonmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockqu=
ote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px=
 solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"font-family:arial;f=
ont-size:14px">&gt;=C2=A0<span>No it does not. This narrative is the worst.=
 A bad explanation of speedy trial can mislead people into thinking miner s=
ignalling is how Bitcoin upgrades are voted in. But a bad explanation can e=
xplain anything badly. </span><br><span></span></div><div style=3D"font-fam=
ily:arial;font-size:14px"><span><br></span></div><div style=3D"font-family:=
arial;font-size:14px">I agree it is worst but why do you think this narrati=
ve exists? People have tried explaining it. Many users, miners and exchange=
s still think its voting. I think the problem is with activation method so =
BIP 8/LOT=3DTRUE is a solution.</div><div style=3D"font-family:arial;font-s=
ize:14px"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:arial;font-size:14px"><br></d=
iv><div style=3D"font-family:arial;font-size:14px">&gt;=C2=A0<span style=3D=
"background-color:rgb(255,255,255);display:inline">The solution is not to c=
hange how we engineer soft forks, it&#39;s to explain speedy trial better t=
o this imaginary group of important people that think miner signaling is vo=
ting.</span></div><div style=3D"font-family:arial;font-size:14px"><span sty=
le=3D"background-color:rgb(255,255,255);display:inline"><br></span></div><d=
iv style=3D"font-family:arial;font-size:14px"><span style=3D"background-col=
or:rgb(255,255,255);display:inline">We can suggest different solutions but =
the problem exists and it is not an imaginary group of people.</span></div>=
<div style=3D"font-family:arial;font-size:14px"><span style=3D"background-c=
olor:rgb(255,255,255);display:inline"><br></span></div><div style=3D"font-f=
amily:arial;font-size:14px"><span style=3D"background-color:rgb(255,255,255=
);display:inline">One example of a mining pool:=C2=A0<span><a rel=3D"norefe=
rrer nofollow noopener" href=3D"https://archive.ph/oyH04" target=3D"_blank"=
>https://archive.ph/oyH04</a></span></span></div><div style=3D"font-family:=
arial;font-size:14px"><span style=3D"background-color:rgb(255,255,255);disp=
lay:inline"><br></span></div><div style=3D"font-family:arial;font-size:14px=
"></div><div style=3D"font-family:arial;font-size:14px"><span style=3D"back=
ground-color:rgb(255,255,255);display:inline"><br></span></div><div style=
=3D"font-family:arial;font-size:14px"><span style=3D"background-color:rgb(2=
55,255,255);display:inline">&gt;=C2=A0<span>We shouldn&#39;t change how we =
engineer Bitcoin because of optics. I completely object to that point conti=
nuing to be used.</span></span></div><div style=3D"font-family:arial;font-s=
ize:14px"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:arial;font-size:14px">Voting =
as described on wiki is quite similar to what happens during miners signali=
ng followed by activation if a certain threshold is reached. If some partic=
ipants in this process consider it voting instead of signaling for readines=
s then listing advantages of a better activation method should help everyon=
e reading this thread/email.</div><div style=3D"font-family:arial;font-size=
:14px"><span style=3D"background-color:rgb(255,255,255);display:inline"><sp=
an><br></span></span></div><div style=3D"font-family:arial;font-size:14px">=
Sorry, I don&#39;t understand your objection. I see a problem that exists s=
ince years and a better activation method fixes it. There are other positiv=
es for using BIP 8/LOT=3DTRUE which I shared in=C2=A0<span><a rel=3D"norefe=
rrer nofollow noopener" href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail=
/bitcoin-dev/2022-March/020178.html" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxf=
oundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2022-March/020178.html</a></span></div>=
<div style=3D"font-family:arial;font-size:14px"><br></div><div style=3D"fon=
t-family:arial;font-size:14px">I will continue to discuss this problem with=
 solutions until we use better activation methods for future soft forks in =
any discussion about activation methods.</div><div style=3D"font-family:ari=
al;font-size:14px"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:arial;font-size:14px=
"><br></div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial;font-size:14px">
    <div>
        <span style=3D"font-family:arial">pushd</span><div style=3D"font-fa=
mily:arial">---</div><div style=3D"font-family:arial"><br></div><span style=
=3D"font-family:arial">parallel lines meet at infinity?</span>
    </div>
    <div style=3D"font-family:arial;font-size:14px"><br></div></div><div>
        ------- Original Message -------<br>
        On Thursday, March 31st, 2022 at 1:40 AM, Billy Tetrud &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:billy.tetrud@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">billy.tetrud@gmail.com=
</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br>
        <blockquote type=3D"cite">
            <div dir=3D"auto">@Pushd<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D=
"auto">&gt; <span style=3D"font-family:arial;font-size:12.8px">Speedy trial=
 makes it worse by misleading lot of bitcoin users including miners to cons=
ider signaling as voting and majority votes decide if a soft fork gets acti=
vated</span></div><div dir=3D"auto"><font face=3D"arial"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:12.8px"><br></span></font><span style=3D"font-family:arial;font-size=
:12.8px"></span></div><div dir=3D"auto"><font face=3D"arial"><span style=3D=
"font-size:12.8px">No it does not. This narrative is the worst. A bad expla=
nation of speedy trial can mislead people into thinking miner signalling is=
 how Bitcoin upgrades are voted in. But a bad explanation can explain anyth=
ing badly. The solution is not to change how we engineer soft forks, it&#39=
;s to explain speedy trial better to this imaginary group of important peop=
le that think miner signaling is voting. </span></font></div><div dir=3D"au=
to"><font face=3D"arial"><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><br></span></font=
></div><div dir=3D"auto"><font face=3D"arial"><span style=3D"font-size:12.8=
px">We shouldn&#39;t change how we engineer Bitcoin because of optics. I co=
mpletely object to that point continuing to be used.</span></font></div></d=
iv><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"gmail_attr" dir=3D"ltr">On =
Wed, Mar 30, 2022, 05:36 pushd via bitcoin-dev &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoi=
n-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" rel=3D"noreferrer nofollow noopener" targe=
t=3D"_blank">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div>=
<blockquote style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204=
,204,204);padding-left:1ex" class=3D"gmail_quote"><div style=3D"font-family=
:arial;font-size:14px">&gt; <span>Any case where a flawed proposal makes it=
 through getting activation</span><div><span>parameters set and released, b=
ut doesn&#39;t achieve supermajority hashpower</span></div><span>support is=
 made worse by bip8/lot=3Dtrue in comparison to speedy trial.</span></div><=
div style=3D"font-family:arial;font-size:14px"><br></div><div><span style=
=3D"font-family:arial;font-size:14px">- Flawed proposal making it through a=
ctivation is a failure of review process</span><div style=3D"font-family:ar=
ial;font-size:14px"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:arial;font-size:14p=
x"><span>- Supermajority hashpower percentage decided by bitcoin core devel=
opers can choose to not follow old or new consensus rules at any point</spa=
n></div><div style=3D"font-family:arial;font-size:14px"><br></div><div><fon=
t face=3D"arial">- Speedy trial makes it worse by misleading lot of bitcoin=
 users including miners to consider signaling as voting and majority votes =
decide if a soft fork gets activated</font></div><div style=3D"font-family:=
arial;font-size:14px"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:arial;font-size:1=
4px"><span>- BIP 8/LOT=3DTRUE keeps things simple. Miners need to follow co=
nsensus rules as they do right now if they wish to mine blocks for subsidy =
and fees.</span></div><div style=3D"font-family:arial;font-size:14px"><br><=
/div><div style=3D"font-family:arial;font-size:14px"><br></div><span style=
=3D"font-family:arial;font-size:14px">Note: Mining pools or individual mine=
rs can participate in soft fork discussions regardless of activation method=
 and share their concern which can be evaluated based on technical merits.<=
/span><br></div><div><span style=3D"font-family:arial;font-size:14px"><br><=
/span></div><div style=3D"font-family:arial;font-size:14px"><br></div>
<div style=3D"font-family:arial;font-size:14px">
    <div>
        <span style=3D"font-family:arial">pushd</span><div style=3D"font-fa=
mily:arial">---</div><div style=3D"font-family:arial"><br></div><span style=
=3D"font-family:arial">parallel lines meet at infinity?</span></div>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br>
bitcoin-dev mailing list<br>
<a rel=3D"noreferrer nofollow noopener" href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.li=
nuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org<=
/a><br>
<a rel=3D"noreferrer nofollow noopener" href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundati=
on.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxf=
oundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev</a><br>
</blockquote></div>

        </blockquote><br>
    </div></blockquote></div>

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