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In-Reply-To: <1ee5a4e7ecffa0f638bbd45b195ecca6@dtrt.org>
From: Greg Sanders <gsanders87@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2022 13:28:28 -0400
Message-ID: <CAB3F3DuLw0KCaQs7xWp6+wxM+cGeRX=MVU-X0Xtd+TX9JgEKSQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: "David A. Harding" <dave@dtrt.org>, 
 Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000000e16a305ea75244a"
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] [Opt-in full-RBF] Zero-conf apps in immediate
	danger
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David, Dario,

The only other effort I'm aware of is
https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/25600 , which as you can see, has
no consensus yet, isn't in 24.0, so at earliest would be 25.0, even if
somehow immediate resolution to the discussions were found.

Cheers,
Greg

On Fri, Oct 7, 2022 at 1:21 PM David A. Harding via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:

> On 2022-10-07 06:20, Dario Sneidermanis via bitcoin-dev wrote:
> > Hello list,
> >
> > I'm Dario, from Muun wallet [...] we've been reviewing the latest
> > bitcoin core release
> > candidate [...] we understood we had at least a year from the initial
> > opt-in  deployment until opt-out was deployed, giving us enough time to
> > adapt
> > Muun to the new policies. However, when reviewing the 24.0 release
> > candidate
> > just a few  days ago, we realized that zero-conf apps (like Muun) must
> > *immediately turn off* their zero-conf features.
>
> Hi Dario,
>
> I'm wondering if there's been some confusion.  There are two RBF-related
> items in the current release notes draft:[1]
>
> 1. "A new mempoolfullrbf option has been added, which enables the
> mempool to accept transaction replacement without enforcing BIP125
> replaceability signaling. (#25353)"
>
> 2. "The -walletrbf startup option will now default to true. The wallet
> will now default to opt-in RBF on transactions that it creates.
> (#25610)"
>
> The first item (from PR #25353) does allow a transaction without a
> BIP125 signal to be replaced, but this configuration option is set to
> disabled by default.[2]  There have been software forks of Bitcoin Core
> since at least 2015 which have allowed replacement of non-signaling
> transactions, so this option just makes that behavior a little bit more
> accessible to users of Bitcoin Core.  Some developers have announced
> their intention to propose enabling this option by default in a future
> release, which I think is the behavior you're concerned about, but
> that's not planned for the release of 24.0 to the best of my knowledge.
>
> The second item (from PR #25610) only affects Bitcoin Core's wallet, and
> in particular transactions created with it through the RPC interface.
> Those transactions will now default to signaling BIP125 replacability.
> This option has been default false for many years for the RPC, but for
> the GUI it's been default true since Bitcoin Core 0.16, released in
> early 2018[3].  It's no different than another popular wallet beginning
> to signal BIP125 support by default.
>
> In short, I don't think anything in Bitcoin Core 24.0 RC1 significantly
> changes the current situation related to transaction replacability.  All
> it does is give Bitcoin Core RPC users by default the same settings long
> used for GUI users and introduce an option that those who object to
> non-signalled RBF will later be able to use to disable their relay of
> non-signalled replacements.
>
> Does the above information resolve your concerns?
>
> Thanks,
>
> -Dave
>
> [1]
>
> https://github.com/bitcoin-core/bitcoin-devwiki/wiki/24.0-Release-Notes-draft
>
> [2] $ bin/bitcoind -help | grep -A3 mempoolfullrbf
>    -mempoolfullrbf
>         Accept transaction replace-by-fee without requiring
> replaceability
>         signaling (default: 0)
>
> [3]
>
> https://bitcoincore.org/en/2018/02/26/release-0.16.0/#replace-by-fee-by-default-in-gui
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">David, Dario,<div><br></div><div>The only other effort I&#=
39;m aware of is=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/25=
600">https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/25600</a> , which as you can s=
ee, has no consensus yet, isn&#39;t in 24.0, so at earliest would be 25.0, =
even if somehow immediate resolution to the discussions were found.</div><d=
iv><br></div><div>Cheers,</div><div>Greg</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail=
_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Oct 7, 2022 at 1:21 P=
M David A. Harding via bitcoin-dev &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.=
linuxfoundation.org">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>&gt; wrote:<b=
r></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex=
;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">On 2022-10-07 06:=
20, Dario Sneidermanis via bitcoin-dev wrote:<br>
&gt; Hello list,<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; I&#39;m Dario, from Muun wallet [...] we&#39;ve been reviewing the lat=
est <br>
&gt; bitcoin core release<br>
&gt; candidate [...] we understood we had at least a year from the initial<=
br>
&gt; opt-in=C2=A0 deployment until opt-out was deployed, giving us enough t=
ime to <br>
&gt; adapt<br>
&gt; Muun to the new policies. However, when reviewing the 24.0 release <br=
>
&gt; candidate<br>
&gt; just a few=C2=A0 days ago, we realized that zero-conf apps (like Muun)=
 must<br>
&gt; *immediately turn off* their zero-conf features.<br>
<br>
Hi Dario,<br>
<br>
I&#39;m wondering if there&#39;s been some confusion.=C2=A0 There are two R=
BF-related <br>
items in the current release notes draft:[1]<br>
<br>
1. &quot;A new mempoolfullrbf option has been added, which enables the <br>
mempool to accept transaction replacement without enforcing BIP125 <br>
replaceability signaling. (#25353)&quot;<br>
<br>
2. &quot;The -walletrbf startup option will now default to true. The wallet=
 <br>
will now default to opt-in RBF on transactions that it creates. <br>
(#25610)&quot;<br>
<br>
The first item (from PR #25353) does allow a transaction without a <br>
BIP125 signal to be replaced, but this configuration option is set to <br>
disabled by default.[2]=C2=A0 There have been software forks of Bitcoin Cor=
e <br>
since at least 2015 which have allowed replacement of non-signaling <br>
transactions, so this option just makes that behavior a little bit more <br=
>
accessible to users of Bitcoin Core.=C2=A0 Some developers have announced <=
br>
their intention to propose enabling this option by default in a future <br>
release, which I think is the behavior you&#39;re concerned about, but <br>
that&#39;s not planned for the release of 24.0 to the best of my knowledge.=
<br>
<br>
The second item (from PR #25610) only affects Bitcoin Core&#39;s wallet, an=
d <br>
in particular transactions created with it through the RPC interface.=C2=A0=
 <br>
Those transactions will now default to signaling BIP125 replacability.=C2=
=A0 <br>
This option has been default false for many years for the RPC, but for <br>
the GUI it&#39;s been default true since Bitcoin Core 0.16, released in <br=
>
early 2018[3].=C2=A0 It&#39;s no different than another popular wallet begi=
nning <br>
to signal BIP125 support by default.<br>
<br>
In short, I don&#39;t think anything in Bitcoin Core 24.0 RC1 significantly=
 <br>
changes the current situation related to transaction replacability.=C2=A0 A=
ll <br>
it does is give Bitcoin Core RPC users by default the same settings long <b=
r>
used for GUI users and introduce an option that those who object to <br>
non-signalled RBF will later be able to use to disable their relay of <br>
non-signalled replacements.<br>
<br>
Does the above information resolve your concerns?<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
<br>
-Dave<br>
<br>
[1] <br>
<a href=3D"https://github.com/bitcoin-core/bitcoin-devwiki/wiki/24.0-Releas=
e-Notes-draft" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/bitc=
oin-core/bitcoin-devwiki/wiki/24.0-Release-Notes-draft</a><br>
<br>
[2] $ bin/bitcoind -help | grep -A3 mempoolfullrbf<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0-mempoolfullrbf<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Accept transaction replace-by-fee without requi=
ring <br>
replaceability<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 signaling (default: 0)<br>
<br>
[3] <br>
<a href=3D"https://bitcoincore.org/en/2018/02/26/release-0.16.0/#replace-by=
-fee-by-default-in-gui" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://bitcoi=
ncore.org/en/2018/02/26/release-0.16.0/#replace-by-fee-by-default-in-gui</a=
><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
bitcoin-dev mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">=
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mail=
man/listinfo/bitcoin-dev</a><br>
</blockquote></div>

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