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From: Jeff Garzik <jgarzik@bitpay.com>
Date: Fri, 8 May 2015 11:49:48 -0400
Message-ID: <CAJHLa0Mc_7OYFpxHjMGTyMNBAXUV+Y67rZMsKuZgp4mGN7fJVg@mail.gmail.com>
To: Alan Reiner <etotheipi@gmail.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c203a8951850051593fbb0
Cc: Bitcoin Dev <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>
Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Block Size Increase
Precedence: list

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On Fri, May 8, 2015 at 10:59 AM, Alan Reiner <etotheipi@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> This isn't about "everyone's coffee".  This is about an absolute minimum
> amount of participation by people who wish to use the network.   If our
> goal is really for bitcoin to really be a global, open transaction network
> that makes money fluid, then 7tps is already a failure.  If even 5% of the
> world (350M people) was using the network for 1 tx per month (perhaps to
> open payment channels, or shift money between side chains), we'll be above
> 100 tps.  And that doesn't include all the non-individuals (organizations)
> that want to use it.
>
> The goals of "a global transaction network" and "everyone must be able to
> run a full node with their $200 dell laptop" are not compatible.  We need
> to accept that a global transaction system cannot be fully/constantly
> audited by everyone and their mother.  The important feature of the network
> is that it is open and anyone *can* get the history and verify it.  But not
> everyone is required to.   Trying to promote a system where the history can
> be forever handled by a low-end PC is already falling out of reach, even
> with our miniscule 7 tps.  Clinging to that goal needlessly limits the
> capability for the network to scale to be a useful global payments system
>
>
To repeat, the very first point in my email reply was: "Agree that 7 tps is
too low"  Never was it said that bit

Therefore a reply arguing against the low end is nonsense, and the relevant
question remains on the table.

How high do you want to go - and can Layer 1 bitcoin really scale to get
there?

It is highly disappointing to see people endorse "moar bitcoin volume!"
with zero thinking behind that besides "adoption!"  Need to actually
project what bitcoin looks like at the desired levels, what network
resources are required to get to those levels -- including traffic to serve
those SPV clients via P2P -- and then work backwards from that to see who
can support it, and then work backwards to discern a maximum tps.

-- 
Jeff Garzik
Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist
BitPay, Inc.      https://bitpay.com/

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Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On F=
ri, May 8, 2015 at 10:59 AM, Alan Reiner <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:etotheipi@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">etotheipi@gmail.com</a>&gt;</s=
pan> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
 =20
   =20
 =20
  <div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" text=3D"#000000">
    <br>
    This isn&#39;t about &quot;everyone&#39;s coffee&quot;.=C2=A0 This is a=
bout an absolute
    minimum amount of participation by people who wish to use the
    network.=C2=A0=C2=A0 If our goal is really for bitcoin to really be a g=
lobal,
    open transaction network that makes money fluid, then 7tps is
    already a failure.=C2=A0 If even 5% of the world (350M people) was usin=
g
    the network for 1 tx per month (perhaps to open payment channels, or
    shift money between side chains), we&#39;ll be above 100 tps.=C2=A0 And=
 that
    doesn&#39;t include all the non-individuals (organizations) that want t=
o
    use it.<br>
    <br>
    The goals of &quot;a global transaction network&quot; and &quot;everyon=
e must be
    able to run a full node with their $200 dell laptop&quot; are not
    compatible.=C2=A0 We need to accept that a global transaction system
    cannot be fully/constantly audited by everyone and their mother.=C2=A0
    The important feature of the network is that it is open and anyone
    *can* get the history and verify it.=C2=A0 But not everyone is required
    to.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Trying to promote a system where the history can be for=
ever
    handled by a low-end PC is already falling out of reach, even with
    our miniscule 7 tps.=C2=A0 Clinging to that goal needlessly limits the
    capability for the network to scale to be a useful global payments
    system <br>
    <br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>To repeat, the very first po=
int in my email reply was: &quot;Agree that 7 tps is too low&quot;=C2=A0 Ne=
ver was it said that bit<br><br></div><div>Therefore a reply arguing agains=
t the low end is nonsense, and the relevant question remains on the table.<=
br><br></div><div>How high do you want to go - and can Layer 1 bitcoin real=
ly scale to get there?<br><br></div></div>It is highly disappointing to see=
 people endorse &quot;moar bitcoin volume!&quot; with zero thinking behind =
that besides &quot;adoption!&quot;=C2=A0 Need to actually project what bitc=
oin looks like at the desired levels, what network resources are required t=
o get to those levels -- including traffic to serve those SPV clients via P=
2P -- and then work backwards from that to see who can support it, and then=
 work backwards to discern a maximum tps.<br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><div =
class=3D"gmail_signature">Jeff Garzik<br>Bitcoin core developer and open so=
urce evangelist<br>BitPay, Inc. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://bitp=
ay.com/" target=3D"_blank">https://bitpay.com/</a></div>
</div></div>

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