Return-Path: Received: from smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (smtp1.linux-foundation.org [172.17.192.35]) by mail.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6487E279 for ; Fri, 24 Jun 2016 02:26:57 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6 Received: from mail-yw0-f179.google.com (mail-yw0-f179.google.com [209.85.161.179]) by smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 21DB021E for ; Fri, 24 Jun 2016 02:26:55 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-yw0-f179.google.com with SMTP id i12so86341574ywa.1 for ; Thu, 23 Jun 2016 19:26:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=s+onQDW/kvE3Z+NeuFMTZLg5Mpl/uU1wM0JkiLjemso=; b=V9s6wd+II1Nl3Vg6+BaMOtMDOXPa8emhvoX42SqiFLS1NljBkI5fiGBPO5zHx1rdfu pEKdgP/pykN44an5Xfv0sRcgFOHvoYS267I7KG1BmHwx81zrQ8nHPAVvDCvYRru4fMZw 8p5SYQQro5Hk9hutAEj1dqaxH1VhYdExhz8NEaqMXg23NqOSCkNqHDnkelML/hosMFN+ 7Z8P/v9L9ft3hTu/J6zxnmVvyfpBXO4C9Agi+A7a7EEjLvL4GYhQS9ybTKtscMxa7WTz D5Bg3tyHNLAbSMEVUb2M5xJrSTaTmxAPEe8F4zCRWNEcm2HEBvdTf3P2z5MAL18SVnwS uuVQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=s+onQDW/kvE3Z+NeuFMTZLg5Mpl/uU1wM0JkiLjemso=; b=b+dejbEDJazb2+nlcnDYo4gxFCplWKSu0F6Z0yHoJt3T74+CH0g8K6L+qtlFNJdCXq 0pu22OUO625gtpp43aO2bpZV0EbJwy44z6gwsoLTUQwBNfK4MQfshDhgjZK2qN1k4EDD uvjUVW+LEJOFksE4mf/KADfIplb6jBOfohPpg6ihdbb7vlhk04QsrEuXin294lLx4Vpd 4Y8pHOaEeek9jZPvVZyIemrVlFDtD84bIBPSL6prFU1u5drHkF1GNNDvG3eV3YBLFZ2l OZNXMSBjy5EJM9EV0K+N7RJq8QcyoRkXAak8OBbcbe4/PQFGeAUb0c5o3FNG+dyZmG/q +/Gw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tLrjyR6HHZIj6V61giWw1dzDjExe8g8pvK/64jnm1cmNcneskC3/QZmZjhb04cX0FFgF1b324kjCPd/RA== X-Received: by 10.129.39.205 with SMTP id n196mr1197854ywn.74.1466735214322; Thu, 23 Jun 2016 19:26:54 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: earonesty@gmail.com Received: by 10.37.72.68 with HTTP; Thu, 23 Jun 2016 19:26:52 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20160621221347.GC10196@fedora-21-dvm> <20160623105632.GB19241@fedora-21-dvm> <576C5531.90608@dyne.org> From: Erik Aronesty Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2016 22:26:52 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: CQF5dfzjBIA-orLOBCKXZd2JEvg Message-ID: To: Justin Newton , Bitcoin Protocol Discussion Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary=001a114092a26e64050535fce791 X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID, FREEMAIL_FROM, HTML_MESSAGE, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham version=3.3.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on smtp1.linux-foundation.org Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Even more proposed BIP extensions to BIP 0070 X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 02:26:57 -0000 --001a114092a26e64050535fce791 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114092a26e64020535fce790 --001a114092a26e64020535fce790 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sometimes I think there's concerted resistance to making Bitcoin usable for the average person. Clearly the primary purpose of BIP0075 is to enshrine a DNSSEC protocol for giving wallet addresses memorable names. On Thu, Jun 23, 2016 at 6:44 PM, Justin Newton via bitcoin-dev < bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: > Hi there, > For users who don=E2=80=99t wish a service provider to be able to see = their > information, even ephemerally, and they would like to exchange informatio= n > via BIP75, they can use a software wallet, such as a breadwallet or other= s, > and that data will only exist on their phone, and the phone of their > counterparty (assuming the counterparty also chose to exchange info, and > was running on a software wallet). > > In this way, we allow users to exchange data as they choose, without > having the risk that a service provider be asked for that data. > > If a user chooses to use a hosted platform, and also to store their > identity data there, I do agree it could be subject to a subpoena, the sa= me > as when they host their email, and other services. > > Finally, they could choose not to use BIP75 at all, and no one would know > whether they did or didn=E2=80=99t (other than their counterparts) as we = don=E2=80=99t > leave any residue on the blockchain, or anywhere else in the public eye. > > We believe that this solution, due in part to its narrow data aperture, i= s > the best solution available to the problem we are solving. We are eager = to > engage in any discussions about how to improve the proposed solution, wit= h > an eye to fungibility, privacy, and usability. > > That said, there is a real need for people to know who they are > transacting with for usability reasons, for fraud reduction, and also of > regulatory reasons for some players. To NOT solve it with a carefully > crafted standard means that it is more likely to be solved with back room= , > quick and dirty solutions that are not available for community review and > feedback. > > Thanks! > > Justin > > > > > > > On Thu, Jun 23, 2016 at 2:31 PM, Police Terror via bitcoin-dev < > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: > >> In England under RIPA 2000 legislation, it's irrelevant whether you have >> the data or not. If the authorities compel you to hand over that >> information, and it is within your means to obtain it then you are >> obliged to do so under threat of criminal offense. >> >> So any mechanism whereby data could be collected from Bitcoin users, >> whether it's stored ephemerally or not, if the police have reasonable >> suspicion to think it exists then they can compel all parties to work to >> get them the data they require. >> >> If the mechanism flat out does not exist, that is miles better than >> could exist. Deniability is not a defense when served with a police >> notice for disclosing data. >> >> You have to think not only about the end result, but also about how >> these mechanisms can be used for intimidating users or leveraging >> technologies. >> >> Justin Newton via bitcoin-dev: >> > On Thu, Jun 23, 2016 at 1:46 PM, s7r via bitcoin-dev < >> > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Any kind of built-in AML/KYC tools in Bitcoin is bad, and might draw >> >> expectations from _all_ users from authorities. Companies or >> individuals >> >> who want and/or need AML/KYC can find ways and do it at their side >> >> isolated from the entire network, and the solutions shouldn't come fr= om >> >> upstream. AML/KYC/ differ from country = to >> >> country and will be hard to implement in a global consensus network >> even >> >> if it would be worth it. >> >> >> >> >> > This was precisely our thinking as well. >> > >> > This is actually exactly why BIP 75 was designed the way that it was. >> Any >> > (voluntary) identity exchange is done at the application level, on an >> > encrypted https (or other) connection between the sender and receiver. >> > Identity data is not passed through or stored on the blockchain, and >> there >> > is actually no mark left on the blockchain that identity was even >> exchanged >> > on that transaction. >> > >> > The only people who know identity info was exchanged, or what the >> identity >> > was is the counterparties in the transaction, and depending on >> > implementation, their service provider. (At a high level, many softwa= re >> > based wallet providers wouldn=E2=80=99t have any visibility into ident= ity info, >> > where many hosted services would, for example) >> > >> > We did this to protect user privacy as well as fungibility. >> > >> > We are allowing the people who want or need to exchange identtity info >> > (either self signed or 3rd party validated) the option to exchange it, >> in a >> > standards based way, directly between peers, without touching the >> > blockchain or network itself. >> > >> > Is this more clear? >> > >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > bitcoin-dev mailing list >> > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org >> > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> bitcoin-dev mailing list >> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org >> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev >> > > > > -- > > Justin W. Newton > Founder/CEO > Netki, Inc. > > justin@netki.com > +1.818.261.4248 > > > > _______________________________________________ > bitcoin-dev mailing list > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev > > --001a114092a26e64020535fce790 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Sometimes I think there's concerted resistance to= making Bitcoin usable for the average person. =C2=A0 Clearly the primary p= urpose of BIP0075 is to enshrine a DNSSEC protocol for giving wallet addres= ses memorable names.

<= br>
On Thu, Jun 23, 2016 at 6:44 PM, Justin Newto= n via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.o= rg> wrote:
Hi there,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0For users who don=E2=80=99t wish a service prov= ider to be able to see their information, even ephemerally, and they would = like to exchange information via BIP75, they can use a software wallet, suc= h as a breadwallet or others, and that data will only exist on their phone,= and the phone of their counterparty (assuming the counterparty also chose = to exchange info, and was running on a software wallet). =C2=A0
<= br>
In this way, we allow users to exchange data as they choose, = without having the risk that a service provider be asked for that data. =C2= =A0

If a user chooses to use a hosted platform, an= d also to store their identity data there, I do agree it could be subject t= o a subpoena, the same as when they host their email, and other services. = =C2=A0

Finally, they could choose not to use BIP75= at all, and no one would know whether they did or didn=E2=80=99t (other th= an their counterparts) as we don=E2=80=99t leave any residue on the blockch= ain, or anywhere else in the public eye.

We believ= e that this solution, due in part to its narrow data aperture, is the best = solution available to the problem we are solving.=C2=A0 We are eager to eng= age in any discussions about how to improve the proposed solution, with an = eye to fungibility, privacy, and usability. =C2=A0

That said, there is a real need for people to know who they are transactin= g with for usability reasons, for fraud reduction, and also of regulatory r= easons for some players.=C2=A0 To NOT solve it with a carefully crafted sta= ndard means that it is more likely to be solved with back room, quick and d= irty solutions that are not available for community review and feedback. = =C2=A0

Thanks!

Justin






On Thu, Jun 23, 2016 at 2:31 PM, Police Terror via bitcoin-de= v <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
In England under RIPA 2000 legis= lation, it's irrelevant whether you have
the data or not. If the authorities compel you to hand over that
information, and it is within your means to obtain it then you are
obliged to do so under threat of criminal offense.

So any mechanism whereby data could be collected from Bitcoin users,
whether it's stored ephemerally or not, if the police have reasonable suspicion to think it exists then they can compel all parties to work to get them the data they require.

If the mechanism flat out does not exist, that is miles better than
could exist. Deniability is not a defense when served with a police
notice for disclosing data.

You have to think not only about the end result, but also about how
these mechanisms can be used for intimidating users or leveraging
technologies.

Justin Newton via bitcoin-dev:
> On Thu, Jun 23, 2016 at 1:46 PM, s7r via bitcoin-dev < > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>> Any kind of built-in AML/KYC tools in Bitcoin is bad, and might dr= aw
>> expectations from _all_ users from authorities. Companies or indiv= iduals
>> who want and/or need AML/KYC can find ways and do it at their side=
>> isolated from the entire network, and the solutions shouldn't = come from
>> upstream. AML/KYC/<insert other regulation here> differ from= country to
>> country and will be hard to implement in a global consensus networ= k even
>> if it would be worth it.
>>
>>
> This was precisely our thinking as well.
>
> This is actually exactly why BIP 75 was designed the way that it was.= =C2=A0 Any
> (voluntary) identity exchange is done at the application level, on an<= br> > encrypted https (or other) connection between the sender and receiver.=
> Identity data is not passed through or stored on the blockchain, and t= here
> is actually no mark left on the blockchain that identity was even exch= anged
> on that transaction.
>
> The only people who know identity info was exchanged, or what the iden= tity
> was is the counterparties in the transaction, and depending on
> implementation, their service provider.=C2=A0 (At a high level, many s= oftware
> based wallet providers wouldn=E2=80=99t have any visibility into ident= ity info,
> where many hosted services would, for example)
>
> We did this to protect user privacy as well as fungibility.
>
> We are allowing the people who want or need to exchange identtity info=
> (either self signed or 3rd party validated) the option to exchange it,= in a
> standards based way, directly between peers, without touching the
> blockchain or network itself.
>
> Is this more clear?
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________<= br> > bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org= /mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>
_______________________________________________
bitcoin-dev mailing list
= bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mail= man/listinfo/bitcoin-dev



<= /div>--

= Justin W. Newton
Founder/CEO<= /font>
Netki, Inc.




_______________________________________________
bitcoin-dev mailing list
bitcoin-dev@lists.= linuxfoundation.org
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mail= man/listinfo/bitcoin-dev


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