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To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Tim=F3n?= , Bitcoin Protocol Discussion Thread-Topic: [bitcoin-dev] Consensus protocol immutability is a feature Thread-Index: AQHXTpAv6/wYfx0CHEOdYVdnKwLU7qrvl92AgABSVUg= Date: Sat, 22 May 2021 19:55:53 +0000 Message-ID: References: , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-incomingtopheadermarker: OriginalChecksum:0473F32F31D4D2DD3B66F73AC4A4391339363DE8F02121B4670AFF17110C3FCF; UpperCasedChecksum:503308A929AECEDE079C2F8EFE38DE1781AF2F5D9C7DC5CAD670C2FF54B8D91A; SizeAsReceived:7201; Count:44 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-tmn: [8TE0IqlPTwNzKXlwsYEzkaZ0E//YGYi7Gveku5Zg1dQ7Dso5W+OUKq5Fecw9Vf/Y] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-incomingheadercount: 44 x-eopattributedmessage: 0 x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: c47ece75-b351-4131-c732-08d91d5b9b81 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: DM6NAM12HT226: x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: dBnQVKFNQsPkGCFTb86rFbDuU5OBsmBD0v40ydSx6x4KVhRBPxkvi9TvC481kVskG+PXkaJWeB2LajrsSJ7+e1ulZD3FshwBip3hOySRNGPbLQgSXTkfIIrPDp2lOg2LJf97ZIETIOaUWwG0C2/0cl2Rfh4JuNr6bzom/ZSp4zjozo58476n9ryrDy1HGmVkAupr3X/n82xzRyAcVbKb37vNGl6p8WkrIokwm0Xiv3dn360ORejPSZ2UWXm7PJu3X1Vp9sqmNnjRa5HiOvV6fpEuPrqm5XhZO0vNYSUuWmZnyTn9vezooPLD5zQb/KfaAr5zGxOz5V7qrBQRi7VLpzO2NGlJNUeQhtI4BefA2TwmsmgzR7s9jMo/Rvw68oOIU/MHbSfFFLJJFp70KYecK7yJ44WcjssHkOF/Mhb+gfC8pWfIvO6q6AHI/9teRU1420sHMbb5gVffMuVynUAocg== x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata: xjil/iFYEQipZoTZmqrjbM0x9iDDljAXMd5cWKcMYmSsSFkf3NAfeQYYQ9slVkDUtHIzUXVMQwkPz/FglqADP8z6vPGBBuxGR49S7x8/3ae/ou2Ti9beoaCJ9KKXkF6sHCGPXSNeOd3oFDo96qc9KPrJ2rGFjV85CpaxmYX/bkZ2/qxCwA/zju5imwHd0z+l+5+5gu1ddkLhikv0DF/4nA== x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_DM6PR02MB6187F5E2A74950211F3934C9CD289DM6PR02MB6187namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: hotmail.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Anonymous X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: DM6NAM12FT013.eop-nam12.prod.protection.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-RMS-PersistedConsumerOrg: 00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: c47ece75-b351-4131-c732-08d91d5b9b81 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 22 May 2021 19:55:53.6669 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Internet X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-rms-persistedconsumerorg: 00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM6NAM12HT226 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 22 May 2021 20:25:29 +0000 Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Consensus protocol immutability is a feature X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 22 May 2021 19:55:57 -0000 --_000_DM6PR02MB6187F5E2A74950211F3934C9CD289DM6PR02MB6187namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable None of these required a hard fork. I should rephrase my previous email to= clarify the intended topic as hard consensus changes, requiring a hard for= k. "Soft" forks can be useful. Raystonn ________________________________ From: Jorge Tim=F3n Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2021 7:55 AM To: Raystonn . ; Bitcoin Protocol Discussion Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Consensus protocol immutability is a feature That is clearly not true. People entretain making changes to the protocol a= ll the time. Bitcoin is far from perfect and not improving it would be stup= id in my opinion. Some improvements require changes to the consensus rules. Recent changes include relative lock time verify or segwit. These are impor= tant changes that made things like lightning much easier and efficient than= they could possibly be without them. Taproot, which is a recent proposal, could help simplify the lightning prot= ocol even further, and make it more efficient and its usage more private. A= nd there are more use cases. There have been consensus rule changes since bitcoin started, and with good= reason. As a user, you can always oppose new changes. And if enough users = agree with you, you will be able to maintain your own chain with the old ru= les. At the same time, there's nothing you can do to stop other users who w= ant those changes from coordinating with each other to adopt them. Perhaps you're interested in bip99, which discusses consensus rule changes = in more detail. On Sat, May 22, 2021, 13:09 Raystonn . via bitcoin-dev > wrote: Suggestions to make changes to Bitcoin's consensus protocol will only ever = be entertained if Bitcoin is completely dead without such a change. Any at= tempt to change consensus protocol without a clear and convincing demonstra= tion to the entire network of participants that Bitcoin will die without th= at change is a waste of your own time. Bitcoin's resistance to consensus c= hanges is a feature that makes it resistant to being coopted and corrupted.= I recommend developers focus on making improvements that do not attempt t= o change the consensus protocol. Otherwise, you are simply working on an a= ltcoin, which is off-topic here. Raystonn _______________________________________________ bitcoin-dev mailing list bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev --_000_DM6PR02MB6187F5E2A74950211F3934C9CD289DM6PR02MB6187namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
None of these required a hard fork.  I should rephrase my previou= s email to clarify the intended topic as hard consensus changes, requiring = a hard fork.  "Soft" forks can be useful.

Raystonn

From: Jorge Tim=F3n <jti= mon@jtimon.cc>
Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2021 7:55 AM
To: Raystonn . <raystonn@hotmail.com>; Bitcoin Protocol Discus= sion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Consensus protocol immutability is a feat= ure
 
That is clearly not true. People entretain making changes= to the protocol all the time. Bitcoin is far from perfect and not improvin= g it would be stupid in my opinion.
Some improvements require changes to the consensus rules.=
Recent changes include relative lock time verify or segwi= t. These are important changes that made things like lightning much easier = and efficient than they could possibly be without them.
Taproot, which is a recent proposal, could help simplify = the lightning protocol even further, and make it more efficient and its usa= ge more private. And there are more use cases.

There have been consensus rule changes since bitcoin star= ted, and with good reason. As a user, you can always oppose new changes. An= d if enough users agree with you, you will be able to maintain your own cha= in with the old rules. At the same time, there's nothing you can do to stop other users who want those change= s from coordinating with each other to adopt them.

Perhaps you're interested in bip99, which discusses conse= nsus rule changes in more detail.



On Sat, May 22, 2021, 13:09 Rayston= n . via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
Suggestions to make changes to Bitcoin's consensus protocol will only ever = be entertained if Bitcoin is completely dead without such a change. &n= bsp;Any attempt to change consensus protocol without a clear and convincing demonstration to the entire network of part= icipants that Bitcoin will die without that change is a waste of your own t= ime.  Bitcoin's resistance to consensus changes is a feature that makes it resistant to be= ing coopted and corrupted.  I recommend developers focus on making imp= rovements that do not attempt to change the consensus protocol.  Other= wise, you are simply working on an altcoin, which is off-topic here.

Raystonn

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bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
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