From: "Raystonn ." <raystonn@hotmail.com>
To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Tim=F3n?= <jtimon@jtimon.cc>, Bitcoin Protocol
 Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Thread-Topic: [bitcoin-dev] Consensus protocol immutability is a feature
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Date: Sat, 22 May 2021 19:55:53 +0000
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Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Consensus protocol immutability is a feature
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None of these required a hard fork.  I should rephrase my previous email to=
 clarify the intended topic as hard consensus changes, requiring a hard for=
k.  "Soft" forks can be useful.

Raystonn

________________________________
From: Jorge Tim=F3n <jtimon@jtimon.cc>
Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2021 7:55 AM
To: Raystonn . <raystonn@hotmail.com>; Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin=
-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Consensus protocol immutability is a feature

That is clearly not true. People entretain making changes to the protocol a=
ll the time. Bitcoin is far from perfect and not improving it would be stup=
id in my opinion.
Some improvements require changes to the consensus rules.
Recent changes include relative lock time verify or segwit. These are impor=
tant changes that made things like lightning much easier and efficient than=
 they could possibly be without them.
Taproot, which is a recent proposal, could help simplify the lightning prot=
ocol even further, and make it more efficient and its usage more private. A=
nd there are more use cases.

There have been consensus rule changes since bitcoin started, and with good=
 reason. As a user, you can always oppose new changes. And if enough users =
agree with you, you will be able to maintain your own chain with the old ru=
les. At the same time, there's nothing you can do to stop other users who w=
ant those changes from coordinating with each other to adopt them.

Perhaps you're interested in bip99, which discusses consensus rule changes =
in more detail.



On Sat, May 22, 2021, 13:09 Raystonn . via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.l=
inuxfoundation.org<mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>> wrote:
Suggestions to make changes to Bitcoin's consensus protocol will only ever =
be entertained if Bitcoin is completely dead without such a change.  Any at=
tempt to change consensus protocol without a clear and convincing demonstra=
tion to the entire network of participants that Bitcoin will die without th=
at change is a waste of your own time.  Bitcoin's resistance to consensus c=
hanges is a feature that makes it resistant to being coopted and corrupted.=
  I recommend developers focus on making improvements that do not attempt t=
o change the consensus protocol.  Otherwise, you are simply working on an a=
ltcoin, which is off-topic here.

Raystonn

_______________________________________________
bitcoin-dev mailing list
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org<mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundat=
ion.org>
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev

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<div>None of these required a hard fork.&nbsp; I should rephrase my previou=
s email to clarify the intended topic as hard consensus changes, requiring =
a hard fork.&nbsp; &quot;Soft&quot; forks can be useful.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Raystonn</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<hr style=3D"display:inline-block;width:98%" tabindex=3D"-1">
<div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif" st=
yle=3D"font-size:11pt" color=3D"#000000"><b>From:</b> Jorge Tim=F3n &lt;jti=
mon@jtimon.cc&gt;<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, May 22, 2021 7:55 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Raystonn . &lt;raystonn@hotmail.com&gt;; Bitcoin Protocol Discus=
sion &lt;bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [bitcoin-dev] Consensus protocol immutability is a feat=
ure</font>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
</div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"auto">That is clearly not true. People entretain making changes=
 to the protocol all the time. Bitcoin is far from perfect and not improvin=
g it would be stupid in my opinion.
<div dir=3D"auto">Some improvements require changes to the consensus rules.=
</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">Recent changes include relative lock time verify or segwi=
t. These are important changes that made things like lightning much easier =
and efficient than they could possibly be without them.</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">Taproot, which is a recent proposal, could help simplify =
the lightning protocol even further, and make it more efficient and its usa=
ge more private. And there are more use cases.</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">There have been consensus rule changes since bitcoin star=
ted, and with good reason. As a user, you can always oppose new changes. An=
d if enough users agree with you, you will be able to maintain your own cha=
in with the old rules. At the same
 time, there's nothing you can do to stop other users who want those change=
s from coordinating with each other to adopt them.</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">Perhaps you're interested in bip99, which discusses conse=
nsus rule changes in more detail.</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class=3D"x_gmail_quote">
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"x_gmail_attr">On Sat, May 22, 2021, 13:09 Rayston=
n . via bitcoin-dev &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation=
.org">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class=3D"x_gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex; border-left=
:1px #ccc solid; padding-left:1ex">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12pt; col=
or:rgb(0,0,0)">
Suggestions to make changes to Bitcoin's consensus protocol will only ever =
be entertained if Bitcoin is completely dead without such a change.&nbsp;&n=
bsp;<span style=3D"background-color:rgb(255,255,255); display:inline!import=
ant">Any attempt to change consensus protocol
 without a clear and convincing demonstration to the entire network of part=
icipants that Bitcoin will die without that change is a waste of your own t=
ime.&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0); font-family:Calibri=
,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12pt">Bitcoin's
 resistance to consensus changes is a feature that makes it resistant to be=
ing coopted and corrupted.&nbsp; I recommend developers focus on making imp=
rovements that do not attempt to change the consensus protocol.&nbsp; Other=
wise, you are simply working on an altcoin,
 which is off-topic here.</span></div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12pt; col=
or:rgb(0,0,0)">
<span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0); font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif; =
font-size:12pt"><br>
</span></div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12pt; col=
or:rgb(0,0,0)">
Raystonn</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12pt; col=
or:rgb(0,0,0)">
<br>
</div>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br>
bitcoin-dev mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank" =
rel=3D"noreferrer">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" =
rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundati=
on.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev</a><br>
</blockquote>
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