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From: Antoine Riard <antoine.riard@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2024 20:01:28 +0000
Message-ID: <CALZpt+EU4JzbDepsu4Wz-6e0XB4VuKCqatiRnb1nKXe++jF+Rw@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Re: Adding New BIP Editors
To: Michael Folkson <michaelfolkson@gmail.com>
Cc: Bitcoin Development Mailing List <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
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Hi Michael,

> In the past there have been disagreements between Core maintainers and
> BIP editors (e.g. Luke with Taproot activation params) and those Core
> maintainers haven't merged pull requests in the BIPs repo or removed
> him as a BIP editor. As long as that continues it isn't necessary to
> create a new GitHub organization for the BIPs repo. They are separate
> repos with different maintainers/editors but under the same
> organization and everyone knows where it is located.

Indeed, avoiding new conflicts like we have seen with Luke with Taproot
activation params is a good reason to separate repositories in my opinion.
Beyond, "security through distrusting" [0] is a very legitimate
security philosophy including for communication space infrastructure.

[0]
https://www.qubes-os.org/news/2017/12/11/joanna-rutkowska-black-hat-europe-=
2017/

> It seems like you want to create some kind of United Nations for the
> BIP process. As I said previously this is almost entirely an
> administrative task. Going to a committee of 10 people with different
> nationalities and languages to decide whether something should get a
> BIP number is absurd. If you think Luke is slow to respond wait until
> your United Nations of the BIP process has to all agree to assign a
> BIP number. Please don't try to make this unnecessarily bureaucratic
> and political for no reason. There's enough of that outside of
> Bitcoin.

No, I wish to ensure that if the aim of the BIP is ensuring high-quality
and readability of standards those ones are well-written, including when
the original standard is contributed by someone non-native.
I can only remember numerous times when my english technical texts have
been kindly corrected by other contributors. Having editors understanding
multiple languages helps in quality redaction.

Beyond, from reading conversations it sounds there is a disagreement if
it's an administrative task (i.e "assigning numbers") or editorial one (i.e
"high-quality, well-written standards").

If we wish to make things less bureaucratic, we might actually separate the
two tasks with different groups of BIP process maintainers :
- assign temporary numbers for experimentation
- wait for more-or-less finalized drafts written in a quality fashion
- assign final numbers for standard candidate deployment

If you see other ways to dissociate the roles and make things less
bureaucratic ? E.g having people only in charge of triage.
If I remember correctly the IETF does not assign RFC numbers for draft
proposals, and you generally have years of experimentation.

Best,
Antoine

PS: By the way, even at the United Nations, unanimity is not the rule, it's
two-third of the general assembly. I think your analogy is not valid.

Le sam. 30 mars 2024 =C3=A0 11:52, Michael Folkson <michaelfolkson@gmail.co=
m> a
=C3=A9crit :

> > In a world where both Core and BIP repository are living under a single
> Github organization, I don't think in matters that much as the highest
> privilege account will be able to
> override any BIP merging decision, or even remove on the flight BIP
> editors rights in case of conflicts or controversies. If you're
> raising the issue that the BIP repository should be moved to its own
> GH repository I think it's a valuable point.
>
> In the past there have been disagreements between Core maintainers and
> BIP editors (e.g. Luke with Taproot activation params) and those Core
> maintainers haven't merged pull requests in the BIPs repo or removed
> him as a BIP editor. As long as that continues it isn't necessary to
> create a new GitHub organization for the BIPs repo. They are separate
> repos with different maintainers/editors but under the same
> organization and everyone knows where it is located.
>
> > Beyond, I still think we should ensure we have a wider crowd of
> geographically and culturally diverse BIP editors. As if the role is
> ensuring high-quality and readability of the terminology of the standards=
,
> we might have highly-skilled technical BIP champions which are not Englis=
h
> native. With the current set of proposed BIP editors, to the best of my
> knowledge, at least we have few langages spoken by the candidates: Dutch,
> French, German, Spanish. This can be very helpful to translate concepts
> devised in language A to technical english.
>
> It seems like you want to create some kind of United Nations for the
> BIP process. As I said previously this is almost entirely an
> administrative task. Going to a committee of 10 people with different
> nationalities and languages to decide whether something should get a
> BIP number is absurd. If you think Luke is slow to respond wait until
> your United Nations of the BIP process has to all agree to assign a
> BIP number. Please don't try to make this unnecessarily bureaucratic
> and political for no reason. There's enough of that outside of
> Bitcoin.
>
> On Fri, Mar 29, 2024 at 9:14=E2=80=AFPM Antoine Riard <antoine.riard@gmai=
l.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > > Roasbeef's work on alternative clients and lightning make him
> technically
> > useful
> >
> > I think one of the aim of the BIP process is to harmonize common
> mechanisms among Bitcoin clients of different langages breeds or at
> different layers (wallet / full-node).
> > Having someone among BIP editors with a proven track record of
> contributing to other full-node codebase beyond C++ can be valuable in th=
at
> sense.
> > Especially for all matters related to compatibility and deployment.
> >
> > > For example I think Jon Atack would make a great Core maintainer at
> some point in the future and I'm not sure a BIP editor should also be a
> Core maintainer given the
> > > independence sometimes required between Core and the BIP process
> >
> > In a world where both Core and BIP repository are living under a single
> Github organization, I don't think in matters that much as the highest
> privilege account will be able to
> > override any BIP merging decision, or even remove on the flight BIP
> editors rights in case of conflicts or controversies. If you're raising t=
he
> issue that the BIP repository should be moved to its own GH repository I
> think it's a valuable point.
> >
> > Beyond, I still think we should ensure we have a wider crowd of
> geographically and culturally diverse BIP editors. As if the role is
> ensuring high-quality and readability of the terminology of the standards=
,
> we might have highly-skilled technical BIP champions which are not Englis=
h
> native. With the current set of proposed BIP editors, to the best of my
> knowledge, at least we have few langages spoken by the candidates: Dutch,
> French, German, Spanish. This can be very helpful to translate concepts
> devised in language A to technical english.
> >
> > Best,
> > Antoine
> >
> >
> > Le vendredi 29 mars 2024 =C3=A0 12:33:09 UTC, /dev /fd0 a =C3=A9crit :
> >>
> >> Justification:
> >>
> >> 1. Jon Atack: Good at avoiding controversies and technical
> documentation.
> >> 2. Roasbeef: Since BIPs are not just related to bitcoin core, it's goo=
d
> to have btcd maintainer as a BIP editor.
> >>
> >> On Friday, March 29, 2024 at 1:47:41=E2=80=AFAM UTC+5:30 Matt Corallo =
wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Please provide justification rather than simply saying "I like Bob!".
> >>>
> >>> Matt
> >>>
> >>> On 3/28/24 12:09 PM, /dev /fd0 wrote:
> >>> > I support Jon Atack and Roasbeef from this list.
> >>> >
> >>> > On Thursday, March 28, 2024 at 6:57:53=E2=80=AFPM UTC+5:30 Murch wr=
ote:
> >>> >
> >>> > I just went through the thread, previously mentioned were:
> >>> >
> >>> > - Kanzure
> >>> > - Ruben Somsen
> >>> > - Greg Tonoski
> >>> > - Jon Atack
> >>> > - Roasbeef
> >>> > - Seccour
> >>> >
> >>> > And Matt just suggested me for the role. Hope I didn=E2=80=99t over=
look
> anyone.
> >>> >
> >>> > On 3/27/24 19:39, John C. Vernaleo wrote:
> >>> > > That said, I would find it helpful if someone could go through th=
e
> >>> > > thread and list all the people who've been proposed so people kno=
w
> who
> >>> > > they should be thinking about.
> >>> >
> >>> > --
> >>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "Bitcoin Development
> >>> > Mailing List" group.
> >>> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
> send an email to
> >>> > bitcoindev+...@googlegroups.com <mailto:
> bitcoindev+...@googlegroups.com>.
> >>> > To view this discussion on the web visit
> >>> >
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/4c1462b7-ea1c-4a36-be81-7c37=
19157fabn%40googlegroups.com
> <
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/4c1462b7-ea1c-4a36-be81-7c37=
19157fabn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dfooter
> >.
> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
> an email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> > To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/f8fa1a55-644f-4cf1-b8c1-4fde=
f22d1869n%40googlegroups.com
> .
>
>
>
> --
> Michael Folkson
> Personal email: michaelfolkson@gmail.com
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Michael,<div><br></div><div>&gt; In the past there have=
 been disagreements between Core maintainers and<br>&gt; BIP editors (e.g. =
Luke with Taproot activation params) and those Core<br>&gt; maintainers hav=
en&#39;t merged pull requests in the BIPs repo or removed<br>&gt; him as a =
BIP editor. As long as that continues it isn&#39;t necessary to<br>&gt; cre=
ate a new GitHub organization for the BIPs repo. They are separate<br>&gt; =
repos with different maintainers/editors but under the same<br>&gt; organiz=
ation and everyone knows where it is located.<br></div><div><br></div><div>=
Indeed, avoiding new conflicts like we have seen with Luke with Taproot act=
ivation params is a good reason to separate repositories in my opinion.</di=
v><div>Beyond, &quot;security through distrusting&quot; [0] is a very legit=
imate security=C2=A0philosophy including for communication space infrastruc=
ture.</div><div><br></div><div>[0]=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://www.qubes-os.org=
/news/2017/12/11/joanna-rutkowska-black-hat-europe-2017/">https://www.qubes=
-os.org/news/2017/12/11/joanna-rutkowska-black-hat-europe-2017/</a></div><d=
iv><br></div><div>&gt; It seems like you want to create some kind of United=
 Nations for the<br>&gt; BIP process. As I said previously this is almost e=
ntirely an<br>&gt; administrative task. Going to a committee of 10 people w=
ith different<br>&gt; nationalities and languages to decide whether somethi=
ng should get a<br>&gt; BIP number is absurd. If you think Luke is slow to =
respond wait until<br>&gt; your United Nations of the BIP process has to al=
l agree to assign a<br>&gt; BIP number. Please don&#39;t try to make this u=
nnecessarily bureaucratic<br>&gt; and political for no reason. There&#39;s =
enough of that outside of<br>&gt; Bitcoin.<br></div><div><br></div><div>No,=
 I wish to ensure that if the aim of the BIP is ensuring high-quality and r=
eadability=C2=A0of standards those=C2=A0ones are well-written, including wh=
en the original standard is contributed by someone non-native.</div><div>I =
can only remember numerous times when my english technical texts have been =
kindly corrected by other contributors. Having editors understanding multip=
le languages helps in quality redaction.</div><div><br></div><div>Beyond, f=
rom reading conversations it sounds there is a disagreement if it&#39;s an =
administrative task (i.e &quot;assigning numbers&quot;) or editorial one (i=
.e &quot;high-quality, well-written standards&quot;).<br></div><div><br></d=
iv><div>If we wish to make things less bureaucratic, we might actually sepa=
rate the two tasks with different groups of BIP process maintainers :</div>=
<div>- assign temporary numbers for experimentation</div><div>- wait for mo=
re-or-less finalized drafts written in a quality fashion</div><div>- assign=
 final numbers for standard candidate deployment</div><div><br></div><div>I=
f you see other ways to dissociate the roles and make things less bureaucra=
tic ? E.g having people only in charge of triage.</div><div>If I remember c=
orrectly the IETF does not assign RFC numbers for draft proposals, and you =
generally have years of experimentation.<br></div><div><br></div><div>Best,=
</div><div>Antoine</div><div><br></div><div>PS: By the way, even at the Uni=
ted Nations, unanimity is not the rule, it&#39;s two-third of the general a=
ssembly. I think your analogy is not valid.</div></div><br><div class=3D"gm=
ail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">Le=C2=A0sam. 30 mars 2024 =
=C3=A0=C2=A011:52, Michael Folkson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:michaelfolkson@gma=
il.com">michaelfolkson@gmail.com</a>&gt; a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:<br></div><bloc=
kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-=
width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);paddin=
g-left:1ex">&gt; In a world where both Core and BIP repository are living u=
nder a single Github organization, I don&#39;t think in matters that much a=
s the highest privilege account will be able to<br>
override any BIP merging decision, or even remove on the flight BIP<br>
editors rights in case of conflicts or controversies. If you&#39;re<br>
raising the issue that the BIP repository should be moved to its own<br>
GH repository I think it&#39;s a valuable point.<br>
<br>
In the past there have been disagreements between Core maintainers and<br>
BIP editors (e.g. Luke with Taproot activation params) and those Core<br>
maintainers haven&#39;t merged pull requests in the BIPs repo or removed<br=
>
him as a BIP editor. As long as that continues it isn&#39;t necessary to<br=
>
create a new GitHub organization for the BIPs repo. They are separate<br>
repos with different maintainers/editors but under the same<br>
organization and everyone knows where it is located.<br>
<br>
&gt; Beyond, I still think we should ensure we have a wider crowd of geogra=
phically and culturally diverse BIP editors. As if the role is ensuring hig=
h-quality and readability of the terminology of the standards, we might hav=
e highly-skilled technical BIP champions which are not English native. With=
 the current set of proposed BIP editors, to the best of my knowledge, at l=
east we have few langages spoken by the candidates: Dutch, French, German, =
Spanish. This can be very helpful to translate concepts devised in language=
 A to technical english.<br>
<br>
It seems like you want to create some kind of United Nations for the<br>
BIP process. As I said previously this is almost entirely an<br>
administrative task. Going to a committee of 10 people with different<br>
nationalities and languages to decide whether something should get a<br>
BIP number is absurd. If you think Luke is slow to respond wait until<br>
your United Nations of the BIP process has to all agree to assign a<br>
BIP number. Please don&#39;t try to make this unnecessarily bureaucratic<br=
>
and political for no reason. There&#39;s enough of that outside of<br>
Bitcoin.<br>
<br>
On Fri, Mar 29, 2024 at 9:14=E2=80=AFPM Antoine Riard &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:antoine.riard@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">antoine.riard@gmail.com</a>&gt;=
 wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Roasbeef&#39;s work on alternative clients and lightning make him=
 technically<br>
&gt; useful<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I think one of the aim of the BIP process is to harmonize common mecha=
nisms among Bitcoin clients of different langages breeds or at different la=
yers (wallet / full-node).<br>
&gt; Having someone among BIP editors with a proven track record of contrib=
uting to other full-node codebase beyond C++ can be valuable in that sense.=
<br>
&gt; Especially for all matters related to compatibility and deployment.<br=
>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; For example I think Jon Atack would make a great Core maintainer =
at some point in the future and I&#39;m not sure a BIP editor should also b=
e a Core maintainer given the<br>
&gt; &gt; independence sometimes required between Core and the BIP process<=
br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; In a world where both Core and BIP repository are living under a singl=
e Github organization, I don&#39;t think in matters that much as the highes=
t privilege account will be able to<br>
&gt; override any BIP merging decision, or even remove on the flight BIP ed=
itors rights in case of conflicts or controversies. If you&#39;re raising t=
he issue that the BIP repository should be moved to its own GH repository I=
 think it&#39;s a valuable point.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Beyond, I still think we should ensure we have a wider crowd of geogra=
phically and culturally diverse BIP editors. As if the role is ensuring hig=
h-quality and readability of the terminology of the standards, we might hav=
e highly-skilled technical BIP champions which are not English native. With=
 the current set of proposed BIP editors, to the best of my knowledge, at l=
east we have few langages spoken by the candidates: Dutch, French, German, =
Spanish. This can be very helpful to translate concepts devised in language=
 A to technical english.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Best,<br>
&gt; Antoine<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Le vendredi 29 mars 2024 =C3=A0 12:33:09 UTC, /dev /fd0 a =C3=A9crit :=
<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Justification:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; 1. Jon Atack: Good at avoiding controversies and technical documen=
tation.<br>
&gt;&gt; 2. Roasbeef: Since BIPs are not just related to bitcoin core, it&#=
39;s good to have btcd maintainer as a BIP editor.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; On Friday, March 29, 2024 at 1:47:41=E2=80=AFAM UTC+5:30 Matt Cora=
llo wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Please provide justification rather than simply saying &quot;I=
 like Bob!&quot;.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Matt<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; On 3/28/24 12:09 PM, /dev /fd0 wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; I support Jon Atack and Roasbeef from this list.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; On Thursday, March 28, 2024 at 6:57:53=E2=80=AFPM UTC+5:3=
0 Murch wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; I just went through the thread, previously mentioned were=
:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; - Kanzure<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; - Ruben Somsen<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; - Greg Tonoski<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; - Jon Atack<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; - Roasbeef<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; - Seccour<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; And Matt just suggested me for the role. Hope I didn=E2=
=80=99t overlook anyone.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; On 3/27/24 19:39, John C. Vernaleo wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; That said, I would find it helpful if someone could =
go through the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; thread and list all the people who&#39;ve been propo=
sed so people know who<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; they should be thinking about.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; --<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; You received this message because you are subscribed to t=
he Google Groups &quot;Bitcoin Development<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; Mailing List&quot; group.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails =
from it, send an email to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:bitcoindev%2B...@googlegroups.com" targ=
et=3D"_blank">bitcoindev+...@googlegroups.com</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mai=
lto:bitcoindev%2B...@googlegroups.com" target=3D"_blank">bitcoindev+...@goo=
glegroups.com</a>&gt;.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; To view this discussion on the web visit<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/4=
c1462b7-ea1c-4a36-be81-7c3719157fabn%40googlegroups.com" rel=3D"noreferrer"=
 target=3D"_blank">https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/4c1462b7-ea=
1c-4a36-be81-7c3719157fabn%40googlegroups.com</a> &lt;<a href=3D"https://gr=
oups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/4c1462b7-ea1c-4a36-be81-7c3719157fabn%40=
googlegroups.com?utm_medium=3Demail&amp;utm_source=3Dfooter" rel=3D"norefer=
rer" target=3D"_blank">https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/4c1462b=
7-ea1c-4a36-be81-7c3719157fabn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=3Demail&amp;ut=
m_source=3Dfooter</a>&gt;.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; --<br>
&gt; You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro=
ups &quot;Bitcoin Development Mailing List&quot; group.<br>
&gt; To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send=
 an email to <a href=3D"mailto:bitcoindev%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com" t=
arget=3D"_blank">bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>
&gt; To view this discussion on the web visit <a href=3D"https://groups.goo=
gle.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/f8fa1a55-644f-4cf1-b8c1-4fdef22d1869n%40googlegr=
oups.com" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://groups.google.com/d/=
msgid/bitcoindev/f8fa1a55-644f-4cf1-b8c1-4fdef22d1869n%40googlegroups.com</=
a>.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Michael Folkson<br>
Personal email: <a href=3D"mailto:michaelfolkson@gmail.com" target=3D"_blan=
k">michaelfolkson@gmail.com</a><br>
</blockquote></div>

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