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From: Richard Moore <me@ricmoo.com>
In-Reply-To: <CADm_WcZkH9fZD23MH8m4wXEnqqjmMg1mPFjeME+uHbMgPNViEw@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2015 12:25:20 -0400
Message-Id: <837A1D9C-FD4E-4DF7-BE6B-4C90EB07C0A7@ricmoo.com>
References: <6D3AACE5-D6CD-4785-8A55-F6DF0B94D927@ricmoo.com>
	<CADm_WcZkH9fZD23MH8m4wXEnqqjmMg1mPFjeME+uHbMgPNViEw@mail.gmail.com>
To: Jeff Garzik <jgarzik@gmail.com>
Cc: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Why not Child-Pays-For-Parent?
Precedence: list


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By ignored, do you mean the nodes/miners didn=E2=80=99t even include the =
low fee transaction in their memory pools, so would no longer have =
access to it? If a node decides to not include it in its memory pool for =
this reason, I guess it won=E2=80=99t send out any INV messages either?

Could the broadcaster of TX_b rebroadcast TX_a? Then I guess any node =
that did add it to its memory pool would realize it=E2=80=99s not new =
and not rebroadcast it to those who didn=E2=80=99t, so it won=E2=80=99t =
propagate=E2=80=A6 Although, after receiving the orphan transaction =
TX_b, it could re-(pay attention) to an INV with TX_a (for a short-ish =
time to prevent further DoS vectors)? Assuming the sender of TX_b has a =
copy of TX_a=E2=80=A6


> On Jul 10, 2015, at 12:13 PM, Jeff Garzik <jgarzik@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> CPFP is interesting, but it does not fully cover the case it is trying =
to address:   If TX_a goes out without sufficient fee, sending out a new =
TX_b will not help TX_a suddenly reach nodes/miners that ignored TX_a.
>=20
>=20
> On Fri, Jul 10, 2015 at 12:09 PM, Richard Moore <me@ricmoo.com =
<mailto:me@ricmoo.com>> wrote:
> Hey guys,
>=20
> With all the recent congestion and discussion regarding FSS-RBF, I was =
wondering if there good reasons not to have CPFP as a default policy? Or =
is it?
>=20
> I was also wondering, with CPFP, should the transaction fee be based =
on total transactions size, or the sum of each transaction=E2=80=99s =
required fee? For example, a third transaction C whose unconfirmed utxo =
from transaction B has an unconfirmed utxo in transaction A (all of =
A=E2=80=99s inputs are confirmed), with each A, B and C being ~300bytes, =
should C=E2=80=99s transaction fee be 0.0001 btc for the ~1kb it is =
about to commit to the blockchain, or 0.0003 btc for the 3 transactions =
it is going to commit.
>=20
> I tried to test it out a few days ago, sending 0.0008 btc without any =
fee, then that utxo into another transaction w/ 0.0001 btc. It still =
hasn=E2=80=99t confirmed, which could be any of: a) CPFP doesn=E2=80=99t =
have enough hash power, b) the amounts are too small, c) the coins are =
too new, d) the fee should have actually been 0.0002 btc, e) the =
congestion is just too great; or some combination.
>=20
> Just curious as whatnot=E2=80=A6
>=20
> Thanks,
> RicMoo
>=20
> =
.=C2=B7=C2=B4=C2=AF`=C2=B7.=C2=B8=C2=B8.=C2=B7=C2=B4=C2=AF`=C2=B7.=C2=B8=C2=
=B8.=C2=B7=C2=B4=C2=AF`=C2=B7.=C2=B8=C2=B8.=C2=B7=C2=B4=C2=AF`=C2=B7.=C2=B8=
=C2=B8.=C2=B7=C2=B4=C2=AF`=C2=B7.=C2=B8><(((=C2=BA>
>=20
> Richard Moore ~ Founder
> Genetic Mistakes Software inc.
> phone: (778) 882-6125 <tel:%28778%29%20882-6125>
> email: ricmoo@geneticmistakes.com <mailto:ricmoo@geneticmistakes.com>
> www: http://GeneticMistakes.com <http://geneticmistakes.com/>
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org =
<mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev =
<https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev>
>=20
>=20

=
.=C2=B7=C2=B4=C2=AF`=C2=B7.=C2=B8=C2=B8.=C2=B7=C2=B4=C2=AF`=C2=B7.=C2=B8=C2=
=B8.=C2=B7=C2=B4=C2=AF`=C2=B7.=C2=B8=C2=B8.=C2=B7=C2=B4=C2=AF`=C2=B7.=C2=B8=
=C2=B8.=C2=B7=C2=B4=C2=AF`=C2=B7.=C2=B8><(((=C2=BA>

Richard Moore ~ Founder
Genetic Mistakes Software inc.
phone: (778) 882-6125
email: ricmoo@geneticmistakes.com <mailto:ricmoo@geneticmistakes.com>
www: http://GeneticMistakes.com <http://geneticmistakes.com/>

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">By ignored, do you mean the nodes/miners didn=E2=80=99t even =
include the low fee transaction in their memory pools, so would no =
longer have access to it? If a node decides to not include it in its =
memory pool for this reason, I guess it won=E2=80=99t send out any INV =
messages either?<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Could=
 the broadcaster of TX_b rebroadcast TX_a? Then I guess any node that =
did add it to its memory pool would realize it=E2=80=99s not new and not =
rebroadcast it to those who didn=E2=80=99t, so it won=E2=80=99t =
propagate=E2=80=A6 Although, after receiving the orphan transaction =
TX_b, it could re-(pay attention) to an INV with TX_a (for a short-ish =
time to prevent further DoS vectors)? Assuming the sender of TX_b has a =
copy of TX_a=E2=80=A6<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Jul 10, 2015, at 12:13 PM, Jeff Garzik &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:jgarzik@gmail.com" class=3D"">jgarzik@gmail.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">CPFP is interesting, but it does not fully cover =
the case it is trying to address: &nbsp; If TX_a goes out without =
sufficient fee, sending out a new TX_b will not help TX_a suddenly reach =
nodes/miners that ignored TX_a.<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Jul 10, 2015 at 12:09 PM, Richard Moore =
<span dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:me@ricmoo.com" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">me@ricmoo.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br =
class=3D""><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 =
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div =
style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" class=3D""><div class=3D"">Hey =
guys,</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">With all =
the recent congestion and discussion regarding FSS-RBF, I was wondering =
if there good reasons not to have CPFP as a default policy? Or is =
it?</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I was also =
wondering, with CPFP, should the transaction fee be based on total =
transactions size, or the sum of each transaction=E2=80=99s required =
fee? For example, a third transaction C whose unconfirmed utxo from =
transaction B has an unconfirmed utxo in transaction A (all of A=E2=80=99s=
 inputs are confirmed), with each A, B and C being ~300bytes, should =
C=E2=80=99s transaction fee be 0.0001 btc for the ~1kb it is about to =
commit to the blockchain, or 0.0003 btc for the 3 transactions it is =
going to commit.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">I tried to test it out a few days ago, sending 0.0008 btc =
without any fee, then that utxo into another transaction w/ 0.0001 btc. =
It still hasn=E2=80=99t confirmed, which could be any of: a) CPFP =
doesn=E2=80=99t have enough hash power, b) the amounts are too small, c) =
the coins are too new, d) the fee should have actually been 0.0002 btc, =
e) the congestion is just too great; or some combination.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Just curious as =
whatnot=E2=80=A6</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Thanks,</div><div class=3D"">RicMoo</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">
<span style=3D"border-collapse: separate; font-family: Helvetica; =
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;" =
class=3D"">.=C2=B7=C2=B4=C2=AF`=C2=B7.=C2=B8=C2=B8.=C2=B7=C2=B4=C2=AF`=C2=B7=
.=C2=B8=C2=B8.=C2=B7=C2=B4=C2=AF`=C2=B7.=C2=B8=C2=B8.=C2=B7=C2=B4=C2=AF`=C2=
=B7.=C2=B8=C2=B8.=C2=B7=C2=B4=C2=AF`=C2=B7.=C2=B8&gt;&lt;(((=C2=BA&gt;<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Richard Moore ~ Founder<br class=3D"">Genetic =
Mistakes Software inc.<br class=3D"">phone: <a =
href=3D"tel:%28778%29%20882-6125" value=3D"+17788826125" target=3D"_blank"=
 class=3D"">(778) 882-6125</a><br class=3D"">email:&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ricmoo@geneticmistakes.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">ricmoo@geneticmistakes.com</a><br class=3D"">www:&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"http://geneticmistakes.com/" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">http://GeneticMistakes.com</a></span>
</div>
<br class=3D""></div><br =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">
bitcoin-dev mailing list<br class=3D"">
<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" =
class=3D"">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a><br class=3D"">
<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev"=
 rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev<=
/a><br class=3D"">
<br class=3D""></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div>
</div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""><div apple-content-edited=3D"true"=
 class=3D"">
<span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; =
border-spacing: =
0px;">.=C2=B7=C2=B4=C2=AF`=C2=B7.=C2=B8=C2=B8.=C2=B7=C2=B4=C2=AF`=C2=B7.=C2=
=B8=C2=B8.=C2=B7=C2=B4=C2=AF`=C2=B7.=C2=B8=C2=B8.=C2=B7=C2=B4=C2=AF`=C2=B7=
.=C2=B8=C2=B8.=C2=B7=C2=B4=C2=AF`=C2=B7.=C2=B8&gt;&lt;(((=C2=BA&gt;<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Richard Moore ~ Founder<br class=3D"">Genetic =
Mistakes Software inc.<br class=3D"">phone: (778) 882-6125<br =
class=3D"">email:&nbsp;<a href=3D"mailto:ricmoo@geneticmistakes.com" =
class=3D"">ricmoo@geneticmistakes.com</a><br class=3D"">www:&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"http://GeneticMistakes.com/" =
class=3D"">http://GeneticMistakes.com</a></span>
</div>
<br class=3D""></div></div></body></html>=

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