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	<eb643e5734bceeb918d116fb75c0d4b3@nym.zone>
From: Greg Sanders <gsanders87@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2018 09:34:39 -0500
Message-ID: <CAB3F3DvcjSRHLYv16SsSb22TxyfdMrsKW-Z4pChEiuTmhG3KYQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: nullius <nullius@nym.zone>, 
	Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="f403045c14dcf50250056244b3cb"
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] BIP 39: Add language identifier strings for
	wordlists
Precedence: list

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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
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Has anyone actually used the multilingual support in bip39?

If a feature of the standard has not been(widely?) used in years, and isn't
supported in any major wallet(?), it seems indicative it was a mistake to
add it in the first place, since it's a footgun in the making for some poor
sap who can't even read English letters when almost all documentation is
written in English.

On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 6:13 AM, nullius via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:

> On 2018-01-08 at 07:35:52 +0000, =E6=9C=A8=E3=83=8E=E4=B8=8B=E3=81=98=E3=
=82=87=E3=81=AA <kinoshitajona@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> This is very sad.
>>
>> The number one problem in Japan with BIP39 seeds is with English words.
>>
>> I have seen a 60 year old Japanese man writing down his phrase (because
>> he kept on failing recovery), and watched him write down "aneter" for
>> "amateur"...
>>
>> [...]
>>
>> If you understand English and can spell, you read a word, your brain
>> processes the word, and you can spell it on your own when writing down.
>> Not many Japanese people can do that, so they need to copy letter for
>> letter, taking a long time, and still messing up on occasion.
>>
>> [...]
>>
>> Defining "everyone should only use English, because ASCII is easier to
>> plan for" is not a good way to move forward as a currency.
>>
>
> Well said.  Thank you for telling of these experiences.  Now please, let=
=E2=80=99s
> put the shoe on the other foot.
>
> I ask everybody who wants an English-only mnemonic standard to entrust
> *their own money* to their abilities to very, very carefully write this
> down=E2=80=94then later, type it back in:
>
> =E3=81=99=E3=81=95=E3=82=93 =E3=81=9F=E3=82=93=E3=82=8D =E3=82=8A=E3=82=
=86=E3=81=86 =E3=81=97=E3=82=82=E3=82=93 =E3=81=A6=E3=81=84=E3=81=8A=E3=82=
=93 =E3=81=97=E3=81=A8=E3=81=86
> =E3=81=A8=E3=81=93=E3=82=84 =E3=81=AF=E3=82=84=E3=81=84 =E3=81=8A=E3=81=
=86=E3=81=95=E3=81=BE =E3=81=BB=E3=81=8F=E3=82=8D =E3=81=91=E3=81=A1=E3=82=
=83=E3=81=A3=E3=81=B5 =E3=81=9F=E3=82=82=E3=81=A4
>
> (Approximate translation:  =E2=80=9CWhatever would you do if Bitcoin had =
been
> invented by somebody named Satoshi Nakamoto?=E2=80=9D)
>
> No, wait:  That is only a 12-word mnemonic.  We are probably talking abou=
t
> a Trezor; so now, hey you there, stake the backup of your life=E2=80=99s =
savings on
> your ability to handwrite *this*:
>
> =E3=81=AB=E3=81=82=E3=81=86 =E3=81=97=E3=81=B2=E3=82=87=E3=81=86 =E3=81=
=AB=E3=82=93=E3=81=99=E3=81=86 =E3=81=B2=E3=81=88=E3=82=8B =E3=81=8B=E3=81=
=84=E3=81=93=E3=81=86 =E3=81=84=E3=81=AE=E3=82=8B =E3=81=AD=E3=82=93=E3=81=
=97 =E3=81=AF=E3=81=82=E3=81=95=E3=82=93 =E3=81=B2=E3=81=93=E3=81=8F
> =E3=81=A8=E3=81=86=E3=81=8F =E3=81=8D=E3=82=82=E3=81=9F=E3=82=81=E3=81=97=
 =E3=81=9D=E3=81=AA=E3=81=9F =E3=81=93=E3=81=AA=E3=81=93=E3=81=AA =E3=81=AB=
=E3=81=95=E3=82=93=E3=81=8B=E3=81=9F=E3=82=93=E3=81=9D =E3=82=8D=E3=82=93=
=E3=81=8D =E3=82=81=E3=81=84=E3=81=82=E3=82=93 =E3=81=BF=E3=82=8F=E3=81=8F
> =E3=81=B8=E3=81=93=E3=82=80 =E3=81=99=E3=81=B2=E3=82=87=E3=81=86 =E3=81=
=8A=E3=82=84=E3=82=86=E3=81=B2 =E3=81=B5=E3=81=9B=E3=81=8F =E3=81=91=E3=81=
=95=E3=81=8D =E3=82=81=E3=81=84=E3=81=8D=E3=82=87=E3=81=8F =E3=81=93=E3=82=
=93=E3=81=BE=E3=81=91
>
> Ready to bet your money on *that* as a backup phrase in your own hands?
> No?  Then please, stop demanding that others risk *their* money on the
> inverse case.
>
> ----
>
> If you cheat here by having studied Japanese, then remember that many
> Japanese people know English and other European languages, too.  Then thi=
nk
> of how much money would be lost by your non-Japanese-literate family and
> friends=E2=80=94if BIP 39 had only Japanese wordlists, and your folks nee=
ded to
> wrestle with the above phrases as their =E2=80=9Cmnemonics=E2=80=9D.
>
> In such cases, the phrases cannot be called =E2=80=9Cmnemonics=E2=80=9D a=
t all.  A
> =E2=80=9Cmnemonic=E2=80=9D implies aid to memory.  Gibberish in a wholly =
alien writing
> system is much worse even than transcribing pseudorandom hex strings.  Th=
e
> Japanese man in the quoted story, who wrote =E2=80=9Caneter=E2=80=9D for =
=E2=80=9Camateur=E2=80=9D, was not
> dealing with a *mnemonic*:  He was using the world=E2=80=99s most ineffic=
ient means
> of making cryptic bitstrings *less* userfriendly.
>
> ----
>
> I began this thread with a quite simple request:  Is =E2=80=9C=E6=97=A5=
=E6=9C=AC=E8=AA=9E=E2=80=9D an appropriate
> string for identifying the Japanese language to Japanese users?  And what
> of the other strings I posted for other languages?
>
> I asked this as an implementer working on my own instance of the greatest
> guard against vendor lock-in and stale software:  Independent
> implementations.  =E2=80=94  I asked, because obviously, I myself do not =
speak all
> these different languages; and I want to implement them all.  *All.*
>
> Some replies have been interesting in their own right; but thus far,
> nobody has squarely addressed the substance of my question.
>
> Most worrisome is that much of the discussion has veered into criticism o=
f
> multi-language support.  I opened with a question about other languages,
> and I am getting replies which raise a hue and cry of =E2=80=9CEnglish on=
ly!=E2=80=9D
>
> Though I am fluent and literate in English, I am uninterested in ever
> implementing any standard of this nature which is artificially restricted
> to English.  I am fortunate; for as of this moment, we have a standard
> called =E2=80=9CBIP 39=E2=80=9D which has seven non-English wordlists, an=
d four more
> pending in open pull requests (#432, #442, #493, #621).
>
> I request discussion of language identification strings appropriate for
> use with that standard.
>
> (P.S., I hope that my system did not mangle anything in the foregoing.  I
> have seen weird copypaste behaviour mess up decomposed characters.  I
> thought of this after I searched for and collected some visually
> fascinating phrases; so I tried to normalize these to NFC...  It should g=
o
> without saying, easyseed output the Japanese perfectly!)
>
>
> --
> nullius@nym.zone | PGP ECC: 0xC2E91CD74A4C57A105F6C21B5A00591B2F307E0C
> Bitcoin: bc1qcash96s5jqppzsp8hy8swkggf7f6agex98an7h | (Segwit nested:
> 3NULL3ZCUXr7RDLxXeLPDMZDZYxuaYkCnG)  (PGP RSA: 0x36EBB4AB699A10EE)
> =E2=80=9C=E2=80=98If you=E2=80=99re not doing anything wrong, you have no=
thing to hide.=E2=80=99
> No!  Because I do nothing wrong, I have nothing to show.=E2=80=9D =E2=80=
=94 nullius
>
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>
>

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Has anyone actually used the multilingual support in =
bip39?<br></div><div><br></div><div>If a feature of the standard has not be=
en(widely?) used in years, and isn&#39;t supported in any major wallet(?), =
it seems indicative it was a mistake to add it in the first place, since it=
&#39;s a footgun in the making for some poor sap who can&#39;t even read En=
glish letters when almost all documentation is written in English.</div></d=
iv><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Jan 8,=
 2018 at 6:13 AM, nullius via bitcoin-dev <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">bitcoin-dev=
@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gm=
ail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-le=
ft:1ex"><span class=3D"">On 2018-01-08 at 07:35:52 +0000, =E6=9C=A8=E3=83=
=8E=E4=B8=8B=E3=81=98=E3=82=87=E3=81=AA &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kinoshitajona=
@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">kinoshitajona@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
</span><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-=
left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span class=3D"">
This is very sad.<br>
<br>
The number one problem in Japan with BIP39 seeds is with English words.<br>
<br>
I have seen a 60 year old Japanese man writing down his phrase (because he =
kept on failing recovery), and watched him write down &quot;aneter&quot; fo=
r &quot;amateur&quot;...<br>
<br></span>
[...]<span class=3D""><br>
<br>
If you understand English and can spell, you read a word, your brain proces=
ses the word, and you can spell it on your own when writing down.=C2=A0 Not=
 many Japanese people can do that, so they need to copy letter for letter, =
taking a long time, and still messing up on occasion.<br>
<br></span>
[...]<span class=3D""><br>
<br>
Defining &quot;everyone should only use English, because ASCII is easier to=
 plan for&quot; is not a good way to move forward as a currency.<br>
</span></blockquote>
<br>
Well said.=C2=A0 Thank you for telling of these experiences.=C2=A0 Now plea=
se, let=E2=80=99s put the shoe on the other foot.<br>
<br>
I ask everybody who wants an English-only mnemonic standard to entrust *the=
ir own money* to their abilities to very, very carefully write this down=E2=
=80=94then later, type it back in:<br>
<br>
=E3=81=99=E3=81=95=E3=82=93=E3=80=80=E3=81=9F=E3=82=93=E3=82=8D=E3=80=80=E3=
=82=8A=E3=82=86=E3=81=86=E3=80=80=E3=81=97=E3=82=82=E3=82=93=E3=80=80=E3=81=
=A6=E3=81=84=E3=81=8A=E3=82=93=E3=80=80=E3=81=97=E3=81=A8=E3=81=86<br>
=E3=81=A8=E3=81=93=E3=82=84=E3=80=80=E3=81=AF=E3=82=84=E3=81=84=E3=80=80=E3=
=81=8A=E3=81=86=E3=81=95=E3=81=BE=E3=80=80=E3=81=BB=E3=81=8F=E3=82=8D=E3=80=
=80=E3=81=91=E3=81=A1=E3=82=83=E3=81=A3=E3=81=B5=E3=80=80=E3=81=9F=E3=82=82=
=E3=81=A4<br>
<br>
(Approximate translation:=C2=A0 =E2=80=9CWhatever would you do if Bitcoin h=
ad been invented by somebody named Satoshi Nakamoto?=E2=80=9D)<br>
<br>
No, wait:=C2=A0 That is only a 12-word mnemonic.=C2=A0 We are probably talk=
ing about a Trezor; so now, hey you there, stake the backup of your life=E2=
=80=99s savings on your ability to handwrite *this*:<br>
<br>
=E3=81=AB=E3=81=82=E3=81=86=E3=80=80=E3=81=97=E3=81=B2=E3=82=87=E3=81=86=E3=
=80=80=E3=81=AB=E3=82=93=E3=81=99=E3=81=86=E3=80=80=E3=81=B2=E3=81=88=E3=82=
=8B=E3=80=80=E3=81=8B=E3=81=84=E3=81=93=E3=81=86=E3=80=80=E3=81=84=E3=81=AE=
=E3=82=8B=E3=80=80=E3=81=AD=E3=82=93=E3=81=97=E3=80=80=E3=81=AF=E3=81=82=E3=
=81=95=E3=82=93=E3=80=80=E3=81=B2=E3=81=93=E3=81=8F<br>
=E3=81=A8=E3=81=86=E3=81=8F=E3=80=80=E3=81=8D=E3=82=82=E3=81=9F=E3=82=81=E3=
=81=97=E3=80=80=E3=81=9D=E3=81=AA=E3=81=9F=E3=80=80=E3=81=93=E3=81=AA=E3=81=
=93=E3=81=AA=E3=80=80=E3=81=AB=E3=81=95=E3=82=93=E3=81=8B=E3=81=9F=E3=82=93=
=E3=81=9D=E3=80=80=E3=82=8D=E3=82=93=E3=81=8D=E3=80=80=E3=82=81=E3=81=84=E3=
=81=82=E3=82=93=E3=80=80=E3=81=BF=E3=82=8F=E3=81=8F<br>
=E3=81=B8=E3=81=93=E3=82=80=E3=80=80=E3=81=99=E3=81=B2=E3=82=87=E3=81=86=E3=
=80=80=E3=81=8A=E3=82=84=E3=82=86=E3=81=B2=E3=80=80=E3=81=B5=E3=81=9B=E3=81=
=8F=E3=80=80=E3=81=91=E3=81=95=E3=81=8D=E3=80=80=E3=82=81=E3=81=84=E3=81=8D=
=E3=82=87=E3=81=8F=E3=80=80=E3=81=93=E3=82=93=E3=81=BE=E3=81=91<br>
<br>
Ready to bet your money on *that* as a backup phrase in your own hands?=C2=
=A0 No?=C2=A0 Then please, stop demanding that others risk *their* money on=
 the inverse case.<br>
<br>
----<br>
<br>
If you cheat here by having studied Japanese, then remember that many Japan=
ese people know English and other European languages, too.=C2=A0 Then think=
 of how much money would be lost by your non-Japanese-literate family and f=
riends=E2=80=94if BIP 39 had only Japanese wordlists, and your folks needed=
 to wrestle with the above phrases as their =E2=80=9Cmnemonics=E2=80=9D.<br=
>
<br>
In such cases, the phrases cannot be called =E2=80=9Cmnemonics=E2=80=9D at =
all.=C2=A0 A =E2=80=9Cmnemonic=E2=80=9D implies aid to memory.=C2=A0 Gibber=
ish in a wholly alien writing system is much worse even than transcribing p=
seudorandom hex strings.=C2=A0 The Japanese man in the quoted story, who wr=
ote =E2=80=9Caneter=E2=80=9D for =E2=80=9Camateur=E2=80=9D, was not dealing=
 with a *mnemonic*:=C2=A0 He was using the world=E2=80=99s most inefficient=
 means of making cryptic bitstrings *less* userfriendly.<br>
<br>
----<br>
<br>
I began this thread with a quite simple request:=C2=A0 Is =E2=80=9C=E6=97=
=A5=E6=9C=AC=E8=AA=9E=E2=80=9D an appropriate string for identifying the Ja=
panese language to Japanese users?=C2=A0 And what of the other strings I po=
sted for other languages?<br>
<br>
I asked this as an implementer working on my own instance of the greatest g=
uard against vendor lock-in and stale software:=C2=A0 Independent implement=
ations.=C2=A0 =E2=80=94=C2=A0 I asked, because obviously, I myself do not s=
peak all these different languages; and I want to implement them all.=C2=A0=
 *All.*<br>
<br>
Some replies have been interesting in their own right; but thus far, nobody=
 has squarely addressed the substance of my question.<br>
<br>
Most worrisome is that much of the discussion has veered into criticism of =
multi-language support.=C2=A0 I opened with a question about other language=
s, and I am getting replies which raise a hue and cry of =E2=80=9CEnglish o=
nly!=E2=80=9D<br>
<br>
Though I am fluent and literate in English, I am uninterested in ever imple=
menting any standard of this nature which is artificially restricted to Eng=
lish.=C2=A0 I am fortunate; for as of this moment, we have a standard calle=
d =E2=80=9CBIP 39=E2=80=9D which has seven non-English wordlists, and four =
more pending in open pull requests (#432, #442, #493, #621).<br>
<br>
I request discussion of language identification strings appropriate for use=
 with that standard.<br>
<br>
(P.S., I hope that my system did not mangle anything in the foregoing.=C2=
=A0 I have seen weird copypaste behaviour mess up decomposed characters.=C2=
=A0 I thought of this after I searched for and collected some visually fasc=
inating phrases; so I tried to normalize these to NFC...=C2=A0 It should go=
 without saying, easyseed output the Japanese perfectly!)<div class=3D"HOEn=
Zb"><div class=3D"h5"><br>
<br>
-- <br>
nullius@nym.zone | PGP ECC: 0xC2E91CD74A4C57A105F6C21B5A00<wbr>591B2F307E0C=
<br>
Bitcoin: bc1qcash96s5jqppzsp8hy8swkggf7<wbr>f6agex98an7h | (Segwit nested:<=
br>
3NULL3ZCUXr7RDLxXeLPDMZDZYxuaY<wbr>kCnG)=C2=A0 (PGP RSA: 0x36EBB4AB699A10EE=
)<br>
=E2=80=9C=E2=80=98If you=E2=80=99re not doing anything wrong, you have noth=
ing to hide.=E2=80=99<br>
No!=C2=A0 Because I do nothing wrong, I have nothing to show.=E2=80=9D =E2=
=80=94 nullius<br>
</div></div><br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
bitcoin-dev mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org">bitcoin-dev@lists.=
<wbr>linuxfoundation.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.<wbr>org=
/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-<wbr>dev</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>

--f403045c14dcf50250056244b3cb--